Wynton Marsalis

[Late]

You know what — I like Wynton Marsalis's playing from 1981-1983. That's not even a confession. I like it. After those years, well, who knows. But, shit, the little fucker during those years was aged 20-22!

I don't own any Marsalis (Wynton or otherwise) in my collection, and actually don't plan on purchasing anything Marsalis any time soon ... but let the madness be suspended for a moment. At that young age, Wynton still made mistakes (musically), and they were beautiful. He wasn't yet playing with that detached insouciance that can make him seem so soulless now ...

At any rate, if you can find a copy, try to see a (filmed live) 1982 Messengers gig called "The Jazz Life." Copies (usually cheap) are out and around on DVD, coupled with a Mike Manieri set (also live). The Messengers on the set are:

Wynton Marsalis: trumpet

Branford Marsalis: alto saxophone

Billy Pierce: tenor saxophone

Donald Brown: piano

Charles Fambrough: bass

Art Blakey: drums

(Walter Davis, Jr. is in the audience with a perma-grin throughout the entire show.)

It won't change your life, but it's certainly worth watching. Sure, you can already see the seeds of The Marsalis Cockiness, but try not to let that get in the way. Wynton Marsalis is playing here — surely Lee Morgan must have been laughing and nodding from heaven.

[Lazaro Vega]

Branford said during that period his solos never came to the point, that while playing with Sting he had to learn how to say what he had to say in a much shorter space, to get to the point.

I think that's evident in this video.

[Late]

Interesting comment.

Branford, I'm fairly sure and as you already know, started with Sting in '84. Two years earlier (— I think I read this in an old DownBeat from the time), he was still sorting through the Wayne Shorter influence — which is interesting, I think, because at the time he was still on alto. Apparently he was hooked on Shorter's soloing from the Plugged Nickel set, and wanted to get some of that into his improvising on alto. I think it worked some of the time ...

[Hot Ptah]

I saw the Jazz Messengers twice, when the group was Bobby Watson, Billy Pierce, James Williams, Charles Fambrough, Art Blakey, and a young Wynton, with a scraggly, long, unkempt beard. He was playing his butt off. I talked to Bobby Watson recently and he said that one of those gigs, at the Jazz Gallery in Milwaukee, was one of Wynton's very first appearances with the Jazz Messengers. No one knew who Wynton was, but we were all struck by his soloing--it seemed remarkable. Everyone talked about the unknown, young trumpet player who was so good.

I also saw Wynton in April, 1982, with Branford, Kenny Kirkland, Lonnie Plaxico and Jeff "Tain" Watts. He was playing very well then too.

To me, the early promise makes what happened to him all the more regretful.

I interviewed Wynton for a university newspaper at the April, 1982 gig. He expressed great doubt about the Miles Davis cover he had played at the gig ("Eighty One" from the ESP album). He said that he loved that music, but did not know if it was a good idea to explore going backward into earlier jazz works. He was very uncertain and in a state of agitation about it.

He also said that he could not find any good drummer for his group, that there were no good drummers in New York who would join him. He trashed the avant garde, stating that the Art Ensemble of Chicago were the worst thing that ever happened to jazz, with their European classical music influences. He said that he had taken 20th century classical music classes at Julliard and knew that it was all nonsense and should not be brought into jazz. In short, he looked very young, but was very opinionated and not at all shy about speaking out.

Shortly after my interview was published, a music professor wrote to the paper and said that she knew Wynton's professors at Julliard and that he had in fact not attended any class in 20th century classical music.

In any event, he was playing quite well at the gigs I attended in the 1980-82 period, with much more passion and intensity than he showed at the gigs I attended in 2000-2005. At the most recent gig, Bobby Watson sat in (raising the intensity level of Wynton's band considerably), and he and Wynton told stories between songs about their fun times with the Jazz Messengers. Wynton recounted how Bobby taught him how to shave, and Bobby laughed about how "country" Wynton was when he joined the Jazz Messengers.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Hot Ptah

[Rooster_Ties]

Branford, I'm fairly sure and as you already know, started with Sting in '84. Two years earlier (— I think I read this in an old DownBeat from the time), he was still sorting through the Wayne Shorter influence — which is interesting, I think, because at the time he was still on alto. Apparently he was hooked on Shorter's soloing from the Plugged Nickel set, and wanted to get some of that into his improvising on alto. I think it worked some of the time ...

Speaking of Branford with Sting in the early 80's -- there was another farily well-known sax player who subbed for Branford several times on the "Dream of the Blue Turtles" tour.

Trivia question time -- who was it??

Getting back on-topic...

EARLY, early Wynton doesn't give me the Hebe-Jeebies nearly as much as almost everything he's recorded after about 1985.

I don't mind Black Codes, and J-Mood is still OK (I've owned them both, and still have Black Codes). But my ability to listen comes to a grinding halt with "Standard Time, Vol. 1" (1986).

Edited October 4, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[Eric]

I don't mind Black Codes, and J-Mood is still OK (I've owned them both, and still have Black Codes). But my ability to listen comes to a grinding halt with "Standard Time, Vol. 1" (1986).

Tom - have you heard the one "Soul Gestures" lp with Elvin Jones and Joe Henderson? I have always liked that one - not necessarily because of those two - I just think it is a good record.

[GregK]

He also said that he could not find any good drummer for his group, that there were no good drummers in New York who would join him. He trashed the avant garde, stating that the Art Ensemble of Chicago were the worst thing that ever happened to jazz, with their European classical music influences. He said that he had taken 20th century classical music classes at Julliard and knew that it was all nonsense and should not be brought into jazz. In short, he looked very young, but was very opinionated and not at all shy about speaking out.

I'd rather listen to Bowie any time

[Late]

Wow, I didn't know that Tyrone Washington subbed for Branford in Sting's band. Totally missed that.

For me, J-Mood is where things become extremely sedate.

[Rooster_Ties]

Wow, I didn't know that Tyrone Washington subbed for Branford in Sting's band. Totally missed that.

Wha???

For me, J-Mood is where things become extremely sedate.

Maybe. I kept Black Codes, and got rid of J-Mood - so perhaps it was pretty snoozy-time. (Still, I kinda of remember J-Mood not being half-bad -- for a Wynton album, anyway.)

Hint -- the sub for Branford in Sting's "Blue Turtles" band was an alto player.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[jlhoots]

I saw the Jazz Messengers twice, when the group was Bobby Watson, Billy Pierce, James Williams, Charles Fambrough, Art Blakey, and a young Wynton, with a scraggly, long, unkempt beard. He was playing his butt off. I talked to Bobby Watson recently and he said that one of those gigs, at the Jazz Gallery in Milwaukee, was one of Wynton's very first appearances with the Jazz Messengers. No one knew who Wynton was, but we were all struck by his soloing--it seemed remarkable. Everyone talked about the unknown, young trumpet player who was so good.

I also saw Wynton in April, 1982, with Branford, Kenny Kirkland, Lonnie Plaxico and Jeff "Tain" Watts. He was playing very well then too.

To me, the early promise makes what happened to him all the more regretful.

I interviewed Wynton for a university newspaper at the April, 1982 gig. He expressed great doubt about the Miles Davis cover he had played at the gig ("Eighty One" from the ESP album). He said that he loved that music, but did not know if it was a good idea to explore going backward into earlier jazz works. He was very uncertain and in a state of agitation about it.

He also said that he could not find any good drummer for his group, that there were no good drummers in New York who would join him. He trashed the avant garde, stating that the Art Ensemble of Chicago were the worst thing that ever happened to jazz, with their European classical music influences. He said that he had taken 20th century classical music classes at Julliard and knew that it was all nonsense and should not be brought into jazz. In short, he looked very young, but was very opinionated and not at all shy about speaking out.

Shortly after my interview was published, a music professor wrote to the paper and said that she knew Wynton's professors at Julliard and that he had in fact not attended any class in 20th century classical music.

In any event, he was playing quite well at the gigs I attended in the 1980-82 period, with much more passion and intensity than he showed at the gigs I attended in 2000-2005. At the most recent gig, Bobby Watson sat in (raising the intensity level of Wynton's band considerably), and he and Wynton told stories between songs about their fun times with the Jazz Messengers. Wynton recounted how Bobby taught him how to shave, and Bobby laughed about how "country" Wynton was when he joined the Jazz Messengers.

I saw Wynton in Milwaukee (small world) with Blakey too. He really was playing then. Hard to believe it's almost 25 years ago.

I've mostly given up on him in recent times. Going to try once more in Nov. with his group including Walter Blanding & Dan Nimmer (piano).

[marcello]

At any rate, if you can find a copy, try to see a (filmed live) 1982 Messengers gig called "The Jazz Life." Copies (usually cheap) are out and around on DVD, coupled with a Mike Manieri set (also live). The Messengers on the set are:

Wynton Marsalis: trumpet

Branford Marsalis: alto saxophone

Billy Pierce: tenor saxophone

Donald Brown: piano

Charles Fambrough: bass

Art Blakey: drums

(Walter Davis, Jr. is in the audience with a perma-grin throughout the entire show.)

It won't change your life, but it's certainly worth watching. Sure, you can already see the seeds of The Marsalis Cockiness, but try not to let that get in the way. Wynton Marsalis is playing here — surely Lee Morgan must have been laughing and nodding from heaven.

Is that the one that was filmed at the Smithsonian ?

Sorry, but I find that one a total bore.

[Late]

Nope, the gig I'm thinking of isn't the Smithsonian date. (I've seen that one too, and, you're right, it isn't all that engaging.) This gig was on Seventh Avenue in New York. Can't remember the name of the club, or if the video even mentions it. But the cameras repeatedly cut back to Walter Davis in the audience — Blakey even mentions him by name before he introduces the Messengers.

Just checked. CD Universe has a DVD of the gig for $9.75. Right here. I've only seen it on VHS. May have to pick this one up.

[Rooster_Ties]

Hint -- the sub for Branford in Sting's "Blue Turtles" band was an alto player.

Anybody"?? I'm guessing that more than half of us here on this very board own at least one leader-dates by the person in question, and several of us probably own 5 or even 10 of his leader-dates.

[Eric]

Hint -- the sub for Branford in Sting's "Blue Turtles" band was an alto player.

Anybody"?? I'm guessing that more than half of us here on this very board own at least one leader-dates by the person in question, and several of us probably own 5 or even 10 of his leader-dates.

Gotta be Kenny Garrett!!!

What do I win? Hope it is not a Sting CD

Edited October 5, 2006 by Eric

[Rooster_Ties]

Hint -- the sub for Branford in Sting's "Blue Turtles" band was an alto player.

Anybody"?? I'm guessing that more than half of us here on this very board own at least one leader-dates by the person in question, and several of us probably own 5 or even 10 of his leader-dates.

Gotta be Kenny Garrett!!!

No, NOT Kenny Garrett -- but that's a GOOD guess!! Heck, I might have even guessed that myself!!

Also, I just checked, and the guy I'm thinking of wasn't on the "Blue Turtles" tour, but rather he was on the "Nothing Like The Sun Tour" in 1987. I've never heard any tapes, but would like to sometime.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Rooster_Ties

[Eric]

Hint -- the sub for Branford in Sting's "Blue Turtles" band was an alto player.

Anybody"?? I'm guessing that more than half of us here on this very board own at least one leader-dates by the person in question, and several of us probably own 5 or even 10 of his leader-dates.

Gotta be Kenny Garrett!!!

No, NOT Kenny Garrett -- but that's a GOOD guess!! Heck, I might have even guessed that myself!!

Also, I just checked, and the guy I'm thinking of wasn't on the "Blue Turtles" tour, but rather he was on the "Nothing Like The Sun Tour" in 1987. I've never heard any tapes, but would like to sometime.

Back to Google ...

[Eric]

Steve Coleman??? (although I don't own of his CDs)

Edited October 5, 2006 by Eric

[Rooster_Ties]

Steve Coleman??? (although I don't own of his CDs)

Yup, Steve Coleman is the guy.