Carlos Ward & Carlos Garnett

[Late]

I admit that I often confuse these two guys for each other. I probably shouldn't, because their playing isn't all that similar ... at least what I've heard of it.

My question — outside of sideman dates, what would you recommend? Have The Two Horns of Carlos recorded that much as leaders?

[Late]

OK, did some homework.

Yanow recommends Ward's Lito (with Woody Shaw) on Leo. He also gives the nod to Garnett's Fire on Muse.

Agree? Disagree? Other recommendations?

It looks like Ward didn't make a leader date until 1985, while Garnett's first leader date was a full decade earlier. Ward, according to AMG, was also part of an "unrecorded" Coltrane octet. Geez, sounds good.

[clifford_thornton]

Lito is the shit - the first side is smokin'!

He's also very strong (albeit in a formative stage) with Karl Berger on that ESP you posted the image of a while back. Ward played with Coltrane a few times, and worked with Sunny Murray briefly in the '60s. I have an interview that I'm hoping to transcribe soon, that gives the details of his life story from Panama to Switzerland and beyond. Very interesting, warm, and friendly cat - and a real talker!

[Rooster_Ties]

Lito is also quite an important recording in that it's one of Woody Shaw's very few (only?) dates in a piano-less quartet. (One of Woody's last recorded dates too, if I recall -- maybe his very last.) VERY unique in the Woody Shaw cannon, and a wonderful recording.

[JohnS]

Ward is very effective on some of the early Dollar Brand's on Enja.

Also on Enja are 2 cds recorded live at Yoshis in 1992 by the Ed Blackwell Project (Graham Haynes, Ward, Mark Helias and Blackwell). Both recommended.

[Late]

I have Ward on Ibrahim's The Invitation, and he is indeed good on that one. (Haven't heard the Enja sessions.) Since I only have him on sideman dates, looks like I better pick up Lito.

I only have Garnett on sideman dates as well (— love his playing on Lift Every Voice), and probably will end up purchasing Fire if I can find it.

[Guest akanalog]

there is also a karl berge date on milestone...

garnett is on some andrew hill stuff, isn't he? maybe the album with voices?

i have some of garnett's muse stuff-i don't really think you need to check it out, late. i like it but i tend towards the electric and slightly fusion-ey and funk-ey older stuff, which is what the garnett material is.

i think "fire" was a best of, so i would not recommend that.

the only one on CD is-um i forget the name now, but there is a bit of singing by dee dee bridgewater which i didn't care for. if you like miles from around this time period, as i do, you might be interested as reggie lucas and maybe mtume? are definitely on the album. some of it is good, just no better than let's say the norman connors buddah albums of around this time period (i do recommend connors "dance of magic" and "dark of light" or whatever they are called, which can be found on a british two-fer on CD still).

oh "black love". that was the name of the CD release.

[Late]

Black Love — that's the one. The Bards had it for $4.99 a while ago. I passed it by, and now it's not on the site.

The Andrew Hill session with Garnett is Lift Every Voice. I'm not sure if you'd like it aka, but it's one of my favorite Hill recordings.

[Guest akanalog]

yeah i owned that hill session and sold it-it was ok but the voices....eh. not for me.

[JSngry]

Black Love has become a cult classic among the "spiritual" crowd, but frankly I think it's one of the lesser works of the genre.

Garnett had a 1996 (recorded in 1995) date on Muse (Resurgence that's a decent enough "neo-con" effort. Still nothing to shout about, though, not really.

On the whole, I think of Garnett (who was living/gigging in Houston last I heard - 3 or 4 years ago) as one of the "foot soldiers" of the music, a guy who's out there doing it. Even if the results make little or no difference to the world at large, hey - they make a difference to him, and he keeps on doing it for that reason. Somebody's gonna hear him and be reached at some level. That deserves at least some respect in my book.

Edited October 12, 2006 by JSngry

[Late]

I haven't heard a lot of Garnett, but it seems to me he's somewhat of a victim of context, or rather not the best timing. Imagine if he'd been given the opportunity, as Tyrone Washington did, to record an album for Blue Note in the late 60's. He'd now have a sort of legendary cache. (And I think Garnett's chops were more together in the late 60's than Washington's.) Instead, his work appears to have been wrapped up in the time, and some times are less forgiving historically than others.

[Guest akanalog]

i think the miles davis group wth garnett (and cedric lawson and sitar and tabla and reggie lucas) was a very underrated one. too bad it was just a transitional thing. or maybe that is why it sounds so good to me?

[Guy Berger]

Since we are talking about sideman dates after all, Ward is excellent on Paul Motian's Tribute. (But only appears on 2 tracks.)

Guy

[JSngry]

I haven't heard a lot of Garnett, but it seems to me he's somewhat of a victim of context, or rather not the best timing. Imagine if he'd been given the opportunity, as Tyrone Washington did, to record an album for Blue Note in the late 60's. He'd now have a sort of legendary cache. (And I think Garnett's chops were more together in the late 60's than Washington's.)

I'll have to respectfully disagree on all counts. Tyrone's spirit was in a unique zone of it's own. Don't think I can say that about Garnett's, which is not a at all dis. But compare Tyrone w/Horace & Garnett w/Blakey for an at least 50% relevant comparison. The difference is focus of intent & execution (whatever the source of that focus might have been). Tyrone had it & Garnett was working on it. That's the difference to me.

[felser]

I haven't heard a lot of Garnett, but it seems to me he's somewhat of a victim of context, or rather not the best timing. Imagine if he'd been given the opportunity, as Tyrone Washington did, to record an album for Blue Note in the late 60's. He'd now have a sort of legendary cache. (And I think Garnett's chops were more together in the late 60's than Washington's.) Instead, his work appears to have been wrapped up in the time, and some times are less forgiving historically than others.

Insightful comments there. I've been a big Garnett guy for decades. My thoughts on different points made so far in this thread. The great Garnett cut is "Mother of the Future" on Norman Connors' 'Slewfoot' album. Much stronger than the version on Garnett's 'Black Love'. But it's the only good cut on the Connors album. Although there are superficial similarities, I don't really see the Connors and Garnett albums of the mid-70's to really be of the same bag. After 'Dance of Magic' and 'Dark of Light' (both well worthwhile), Connors made many commercial concessions in his albums, as did so many in that era. Garnett made a series of albums in the "spiritual" vein for Muse in the mid-70's which made no commercial concessions. "Funky" is not a good description for them however. "Spiritual" and "Soulful" are. The best of them were'Journey To Enlightenment' and 'Let This Melody Ring On', which perfect what he first experimented with on 'Black Love'. They are beautiful, unique experiences. 'Black Love' is not nearly as strong as those other two which immediately followed (plus there were a couple more which came out after that), but is the only one to show up on CD. 'Fire' is a total botch job of a collection, despite having a couple of brilliant cuts. It's only 40 minutes long , and 12+ of those is taken up by the rambling "Taurus Woman", a weak cut from 'Black Love'. For all the wonderful work 32jazz did on straight reissues of Muse dates, they sure botched the anthologies (the Jimmy Heath one is also a mess, 40-something minutes and missing his best work on the label). Garnett disappeared from the recording scene for 20 years, then amazingly reappeared on Muse in the late 90's to do the strongest recorded tenor playing of his career. 'Resurgence', 'Fuego En Mi Alma' , and 'Under Nubian Skies' are done in a more normal post-bop mode, no vocals, but contain good writing, a good young band, and stunning tenor playing by Garnett. I have not heard 'Moon Shadow', released on Savant in 2001, have been waiting for years to get it at a decent price or trade for it.

Edited October 12, 2006 by felser

[Guest akanalog]

i was just meaning the first two or three connors albums as they quickly started to suck as he sold out (though i do like the one with "bubbles" a bit).

i think we have different definitions of funky-when it comes to this kind of music i find "black unity" kind of funky (and spiritual).

i think all the garnett muse albums made some concessions for the dance floor (in the same way miles davis tried to make concessions for the dance floor which obviously weren't going to work and wouldn't have been obvious to the dancing crowd). i guess i will relisten though i recall not really liking "let the melody ring on" so much when i last put it on.

[clifford_thornton]

WARD'S ISLAND

Carlos <----> Cecil, not the first (or third) dude you'd think of for that gig but not... uninteresting.

Forgot about those... that was a weird band, with Thurman Barker and Leroy Jenkins, right?

[jlhoots]

Ward is very effective on some of the early Dollar Brand's on Enja.

Also on Enja are 2 cds recorded live at Yoshis in 1992 by the Ed Blackwell Project (Graham Haynes, Ward, Mark Helias and Blackwell). Both recommended.

Found (and ordered) the Blackwell: What It Be Like for $12.99 at Dusty Groove.

Received shipping confirmation.

Must have been their only copy because it's now listed as out of stock.

The other Blackwell seems to be at least $25 from various sellers.

Edited October 13, 2006 by jlhoots

[Late]

Has anyone here heard Carlos Ward's work on the PeullMusic label? (I've never even heard of that label.) Cadence lists two leader dates: "Faces" and "Live at The Bug."

[chris olivarez]

I'm with Felser on Carlos Garnett. I just about wore out "Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On" but somewhere along the way I parted company with those two albums and I really didn't mean to.