JSngry Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 But speaking of JB, I played "There It Is" about 30 times in a row last night and kept thinking that this was one cut that could have been played by Miles' band. The converse, though, could not be said about what has come to be called "Tune In 5". Sly got in the same area of bouncing staticicity w/"In Time" (and why that's not considered some sort of apex by the "conventional wisdom") is beyond me) but only in the general vicinity. Allegations of pale imitation, half-jesting or otherwise, just don't hold up to an examination of the particulars. This ain't the Mizell brothers we're talking about here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Allegations of pale imitation, half-jesting or otherwise, just don't hold up to an examination of the particulars. This ain't the Mizell brothers we're talking about here... We be in different worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 My problem is how thin the music became, meaning I have to listen to a bunch of shit to get to stuff I care for. This was not a problem with Miles earlier. Why is that Miles' problem? I mean, I know where you're coming from, but doesn't it all come down to you not liking what was there more than there not being anything there at all? Truthfully, I can say that about Big Fun (interesting production throughout - and that's "important" in its own way - but thin on the music overall), In Concert (group not yet together at all). & side 4 of GUWI (needed tightening up and/or editing and or no "Red China Blues"). Mileages are going to vary widely on this, obviously, depending on what in music gives you pleasure and/or stimulation. But it's that subjectivity that steers me away from the "Miles selling out" arguments, other than to point out that if the guy was just trying to get over, he picked a helluva strange way of going about it. I mean, Pete Cosey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 What I said. If you have a good time, go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Allegations of pale imitation, half-jesting or otherwise, just don't hold up to an examination of the particulars. This ain't the Mizell brothers we're talking about here... We be in different worlds. On this one, yeah. But it's just one world among many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Allegations of pale imitation, half-jesting or otherwise, just don't hold up to an examination of the particulars. This ain't the Mizell brothers we're talking about here... We be in different worlds. On this one, yeah. But it's just one world among many. Hope there aren't too many more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 As many or as few as you want. Thing is, they all add up to one. Didn't tell my kids that when I was helping them w/their math homework. though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I never said Miles "sold out". I do think he wanted "fame" equal to the big rock folks and think he made some stupid choices on his journey to get there. He could do some things "better" than they could and they could do some things he couldn't. This is not an even exchange. Not to mention the things they couldn't. I think it's a shame he wanted to go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) Fair enough, but Miles being Miles (with and without a trumpet), where would you have liked to have seen him go? Edited October 17, 2006 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Cleveland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Miles can/could go where he wanted. I don't have a need to admire his choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) I don't know. . . more than any musician or music at any other time in my life, when 17 year old me came back from Waterford Kamhlaba school (M'Babane Swaziland) to Berkshire High School (Burton, Ohio) and found that he did not relate ta lot of the music he found all his peers getting all into, and discovered Miles discovering "new directions in music" I almost felt that the music was being tailor made for me. I just responded in a way that I haven't really since to music. It was one of those things. It led me to Duke and Pops and Trane and Ornette and all kinds of musical adventures. And it still is music that is language in my head. Guess that's where I stand. Edited October 17, 2006 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 You have the "need". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Okay. And like you, I wish he'd gone to Cleveland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Miles can/could go where he wanted. I don't have a need to admire his choices. Another serious question, Chuck. In your opinion, did Ornette also go off the rails in the 70's?? (Or, rather -- in your opinion, did Ornette also make mostly poor choices in the 70's??) Or perhaps more generally speaking... Are "Miles + Electricity and Funk" and "Ornette + Electricity and Funk" more different, or more similar?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) did Ornette also go off the rails in the 70's?? (Or, rather -- in your opinion, did Ornette also make mostly poor choices in the 70's??) Big time to me. I can't hear that music at all. I can do 70's Miles just fine, though I'll always prefer 50's and 60's Miles. 80's Miles was the sell-out to me, at least in the studio (Other board members have stated that his live concerts remained worthwhile). 70's Ornette obviously wasn't a sell-out, but strikes me (then and now) as totally bizarre. The critics rhapsodized about harmolodics or whatever he called it, and I tried and tried, but it never broke through in the least to me. It was a breakdown in the rhythm to me. His son on drums in the 60's was another breakdown to me. Give me LaFaro/Higgins, Haden/Blackwell, or Garrison/Jones anytime. But again, Ornette has the right to go where he wants, and I have the right to follow or not. But if I can't hear it, I can't hear it. I have the same problem with the M-base stuff. Edited October 17, 2006 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganized Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I never said Miles "sold out". I do think he wanted "fame" equal to the big rock folks and think he made some stupid choices on his journey to get there. He could do some things "better" than they could and they could do some things he couldn't. This is not an even exchange. Not to mention the things they couldn't. I think it's a shame he wanted to go there. For some reason I was having similar thoughts a couple of nights ago while listening to some earlier Miles. Decided that the "British Invasion" must have been very hard on Miles. I mean Miles had been the cultural definition of "cool" in the early 60"s with the Columbia publicity machine and all of a sudden there was a new paradigm. I would think that is very hard on the ego and I think Chuck has it nailed. Miles wanted to regain his stature and status as the icon of cool. Regardless of what you think about his later work you can't say that he was not trying to find the magic. Unfortunately the magic he was looking for included the fame, the recognition, the music, essentially everything. In this regard he may have lost a bit of focus. Still, I feel humbled by his talent and his spirit. He showed up, he brought his stuff and he gave his best effort. We can't ask for any more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Are "Miles + Electricity and Funk" and "Ornette + Electricity and Funk" more different, or more similar?? More different. For all the funk, blues and r & b references, Miles’ 1973-1975 bands were darker and more subversive, peppered with silence and avant noise experiments. Sly Stone and the James Brown weren’t the only points of reference; throw in Stockhausen as well. By contrast, Ornette of this period sounded like a sunnier, electrified version of himself. His music was much more straightforward than Miles’. There were superficial similarities in instrumentation with twinned guitars and two percussionists (the latter post-Body Meta in Coleman’s case). Also, Reggie Lucas briefly studied with Ornette before Dancing in Your Head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Who else notably went "electric" in arguably substantive ways during the 70's?? By "substabative" – I mean ways that partially transformed their musical vision – in ways that weren't just about "selling out" – or trying to be more "popular". (For whom can reasonable arguments be made that such a "electric" transformation occurred in their creative vision – that went beyond simply doing what they'd always done, only with electric instruments. Or going "commercial" i.e., Donald Byrd) For me, I'd strongly consider including Joe Henderson's Milestone output. Argue all you want, but most of that shit wasn't about selling out. Like it or not (and I do like it), there's some heavy music there, and Joe's playing was as strong as ever (IMHO). Everyone else I'm thinking of were primarily sidemen in the 60’s before becoming leaders in the 70’s (Marcus Belgrave, Bennie Maupin, etc…). So I guess in my question above, I’m thinking of leaders in particular – about overall creative vision, rather than individual playing characteristics. Others?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Who else notably went "electric" in arguably substantive ways during the 70's?? By "substabative" – I mean ways that partially transformed their musical vision – in ways that weren't just about "selling out" – or trying to be more "popular". ... For me, I'd strongly consider including Joe Henderson's Milestone output. Argue all you want, but most of that shit wasn't about selling out. Like it or not (and I do like it), there's some heavy music there, and Joe's playing was as strong as ever (IMHO). Everyone else I'm thinking of were primarily sidemen in the 60’s before becoming leaders in the 70’s (Marcus Belgrave, Bennie Maupin, etc…). So I guess in my question above, I’m thinking of leaders in particular – about overall creative vision, rather than individual playing characteristics. I've only heard two "electric" Joe H albums (In Japan and Power to the People) and I wouldn't call them "substantively" electric. They sound like post-bop albums with electric piano and electric bass. The Miles Davis sidemen -- especially Wayne Shorter, Joe Zawinul, Herbie Hancock, and Chick Corea -- are obvious choices. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Who else notably went "electric" in arguably substantive ways during the 70's?? JMc Mahavishu pushed the envelope with Jan Hammer. I remember an artricle in DownBeat years ago where Corea gave total total credit for Hammer being an influence on synth, using the pich bend and then everybody started using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 well when it comes to joe henderson i agree that he was just shifting with the times though i would not write off his electric work. but i don't think his work needs to be explored in regards to their being a joe henderson: the electric years. one could easily check out "the elements" for henderson's attempt at something more soulful or spiritual along the lines of what impulse! was producing at the time. but joe did go deeper than just "the trappings" when it came to synths and stuff. "black narcissus" had a very cool tenor drums and moog tune and "black is the color" has some pretty space-ey stuff with some people from the miles clan. though obviously henderson wasn't an innovator in any of these areas.... what about the drums on "star people"? some weird production. looking forward to some of booming beats hip-hop stereo mcs etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Who else notably went "electric" in arguably substantive ways during the 70's?? By "substabative" – I mean ways that partially transformed their musical vision – in ways that weren't just about "selling out" – or trying to be more "popular". There's Hancock's pre-Head Hunters sextet. Early Weather Report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 you could also say paul bley was pushing some envelopes as far as pluggin in-how far could one take a monosynth as lead instrument in improvisational jazz? i would argue bley sucks plugged in and coming from a self-professed keyboard lover like myself it is a shame to say this since he has some albums heavy on the ARPs and moogs but man he and also with ms. peacock gives me a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 jack dejohnette has some plugged in stuff. you could argue that that song is it "sorcery #1"? is one of the best e-jazz jams ever. that same album has some trippy keyboard stuff by dejohnette. "comsic chicken" was a good album and pretty fusion-ey by dejohnette. he then had his compost band which was pretty electric with a lot of clavinet and e-bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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