Aging Avant-Garde

[Larry Kart]

Straight, simple question - is there some book out there that can fill in the last 40 years of Chicago avant for me?

MG

Not yet. From what I've seen of it, George Lewis's forthcoming tome on the AACM will be chewy in spots but often brilliant and as close to comprehensive as could be possible. The non-AACM Chicago AG scene has not found its Boswell (don't look at me -- I couldn't get past the Vandermark barrier, for one thing), nor has it been continuous, as far as I know, in the way the AACM has been since its inception. Probably the key figure of continuity there was, as Chuck pointed out on that thread from 2005 I linked to, the late Hal Russell. (Chuck recorded Russell as well as Roscoe Mitchell, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith et al.) Also, when I say the "non-AACM Chicago AG scene," I don't mean to suggest that there's any sense of opposition at work here; in fact, there's a good deal of friendly, open-eared contact, sharing of bandstands, interactions among players, etc.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

MG-- i don't think Sista's really gets that much money at all-- those 'gets funding' citations are very deceptive in that regard.

Kay.

reading

Ahmed Abdullah's website

is perhaps instructive.

Yes, very. Thanks. AA can write really nice stuff. I could feeel Ascension again, as I read it.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Straight, simple question - is there some book out there that can fill in the last 40 years of Chicago avant for me?

MG

Not yet. From what I've seen of it, George Lewis's forthcoming tome on the AACM will be chewy in spots but often brilliant and as close to comprehensive as could be possible. The non-AACM Chicago AG scene has not found its Boswell (don't look at me -- I couldn't get past the Vandermark barrier, for one thing), nor has it been continuous, as far as I know, in the way the AACM has been since its inception. Probably the key figure of continuity there was, as Chuck pointed out on that thread from 2005 I linked to, the late Hal Russell. (Chuck recorded Russell as well as Roscoe Mitchell, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith et al.) Also, when I say the "non-AACM Chicago AG scene," I don't mean to suggest that there's any sense of opposition at work here; in fact, there's a good deal of friendly, open-eared contact, sharing of bandstands, interactions among players, etc.

Ok, thanks. I'll do what I always do then - thrash around a bit and see what turns up.

MG

[RDK]

Fuck Manhattan. Know how much a-g we get here in L.A.? Last time (only time i recall) Ornette played in L.A. was at the frakin' Disney concert hall. Now a-g isn't often my cuppa, but I'd at least like the chance every once in a while....

[Chuck Nessa]

Fuck Manhattan. Know how much a-g we get here in L.A.? Last time (only time i recall) Ornette played in L.A. was at the frakin' Disney concert hall. Now a-g isn't often my cuppa, but I'd at least like the chance every once in a while....

Might I suggest if "a-g isn't often my cuppa" you would miss the news.

[Chuck Nessa]

I am really disturbed by the direction of this thread.

The future of "the music" and how it develops is a huge question for me. If the answer is posts above, we be gone.

Music should be a living thing, not parasites mining the past for a "style" on which to build a career. That shit don't work anyway.

[Larry Kart]

I am really disturbed by the direction of this thread.

The future of "the music" and how it develops is a huge question for me. If the answer is posts above, we be gone.

Music should be a living thing, not parasites mining the past for a "style" on which to build a career. That shit don't work anyway.

Hope my post wasn't one of those, but just in case, none of the players I mentioned there seems to me to be a parasite "mining the past for a 'style' on which to build a career." I don't like that shit either, agree that it doesn't work anyway, and don't think I'm likely to be fooled. (If I am self-deluded here, our friend John L. is in the same boat on several of these guys FWIW.)

[JSngry]

If I read "Af-Am" one more time, I'm going to puke. Nothing personal, but..... no. Just one of those things.

If we want to look backwards to look forwards in a non-necrophilliac kind of way, it seems to me that all great music comes out of a heritage of ritual, including dance. To that end, I'd suggest that the big disconnect of our times is between the "musically intellegent" community & the dance music world. The former is (mostly) too intellectually self-congratulatory to lower itself to the realm of something as common as dance, and the latter has (mostly) been barracaded from musical depth/breadth by a combination of their own myopic/claustrophobic life vision & the self-interests of an industry that needs to discourage true escape in order to keep selling the illusion of it.

This needs to change if humanity is going to remain human. People who hate dancing, especially "creative musicians" are dangerous. And so are people who would rather dance than think. You gotta, absolutely must gotta, do both. In some way.

However, there are pockets of really creative & vital dance music being made today, the very best of it more creative and vital that all but a thimble full of the "jazz" that's getting made. It still "suffers" from certain (and only certain) "musical limitations", but anybody who thinks that there's not room for such a thing in that music is mistaken. I can feel it, and I can almost hear it. I don't I have the generational/lifestyle "connection" to actually do it, what with me having lived, married, bred, and aged in the Jazz Cave all these years. But surely the blood that can do it is out there.

[Chuck Nessa]

However, there are pockets of really creative & vital dance music being made today, the very best of it more creative and vital that all but a thimble full of the "jazz" that's getting made.

Pockets are my worst fear. That means no direction ahead (as demonstrated for a while).

[rostasi]

(wanders in from outside)

Watcha all talkin' bout here?

[Chuck Nessa]

(wanders in from outside)

Watcha all talkin' bout here?

French lit.

[JSngry]

However, there are pockets of really creative & vital dance music being made today, the very best of it more creative and vital that all but a thimble full of the "jazz" that's getting made.

Pockets are my worst fear. That means no direction ahead (as demonstrated for a while).

I hear ya', but I also wonder how much of the pocket-ism is real & how much of it is caused by self-induced & self-sustaining illusions.

Too many goddamn shackles...

[Chuck Nessa]

I hear ya', but I also wonder how much of the pocket-ism is real & how much of it is caused by self-induced & self-sustaining illusions.

Too many goddamn shackles...

Self imposed I fear.

[rostasi]

(wanders in from outside)

Watcha all talkin' bout here?

French lit.

I thought you were gonna tell me to go back to bed.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm getting dizzy again.

[JSngry]

I hear ya', but I also wonder how much of the pocket-ism is real & how much of it is caused by self-induced & self-sustaining illusions.

Too many goddamn shackles...

Self imposed I fear.

Yep. On all sides.

[Chuck Nessa]

Jim, you deleted a post explaining my dizz message.

[JSngry]

My bad. Sorry.

[Larry Kart]

If I read "Af-Am" one more time, I'm going to puke.

Clem -- I've listened over and over to a fair amount of Saariaho and Lindberg, in the hope that ... but, no. Seems to me that in the former there's almost no "there" there, and that in the latter one moves, over time, from a near-programmatic ugliness (like the score for a movie about a huge nasty alien space ship, e.g. the aptly titled "Engine") to candy sweetness (e.g. the Clarinet Concerto -- not a bad ear there, but SO sweet). I've got my money on Helmut Lachenmann, Pascal Dusapin, Salvatore Sciarrino, and a few others.

[Larry Kart]

Jim -- In case that wasn't clear, that's my on the thought of puking at "Af-Am." Sorry if that made you do it.

[Larry Kart]

Whew. Found my copy of that fine Jason Ajemian disc:

http://www.luckykitchen.com/spark2/lk025.html

Don't know if it's still available. The Jazz Record Mart might have a few copies left.

Here Ajemian's My Space site, if you want to ask him directly:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=50309593

[ghost of miles]

If we want to look backwards to look forwards in a non-necrophilliac kind of way, it seems to me that all great music comes out of a heritage of ritual, including dance. To that end, I'd suggest that the big disconnect of our times is between the "musically intellegent" community & the dance music world. The former is (mostly) too intellectually self-congratulatory to lower itself to the realm of something as common as dance, and the latter has (mostly) been barracaded from musical depth/breadth by a combination of their own myopic/claustrophobic life vision & the self-interests of an industry that needs to discourage true escape in order to keep selling the illusion of it.

This needs to change if humanity is going to remain human. People who hate dancing, especially "creative musicians" are dangerous. And so are people who would rather dance than think. You gotta, absolutely must gotta, do both. In some way.

Jim,

Isn't this the schism that Ellison et al identify as emerging in the mid-1940s with bop? (Pace Mr. Jones/Baraka's assertion--not without validity--that bop could be danced to--but I'm interested to see you putting forth a modern variant of this line of thought.)

Rhythm's at the heart of nearly every musical revolution, but I'm no longer sure it's going to save the world.

Edited October 24, 2006 by ghost of miles

[Larry Kart]

LK! Where'd you pull Dusapin out of? That's pretty good. I suggest going back to Saariaho, she's the Finnish lady Debussy meets Sibelius. Lindberg I do share reservations but he's real & ingratiaing in complexity. I'm thinking of you can dig on Elliott Carter, Lindberg's next. Rautavaara I was cool too for a while, all the damn angels for one, but now I am convinced he's a genius.

Pulling something as wildly obscure as James Broughton "True & False Unicorn" out as a text ain't the sign of a lightweight. Sciarrino & Lachenmann are good but different bags-- have you heard the Helmit "opera" Das Madchen... ? Peter Eotvos, an excellent composer, does NOT conduct, but elsewhere he does.

everybody is a star * including clementine

Don't recall when and how Dusapin crossed my path, but I like most everything I've heard. Debussy meets Sibelius is what Saariaho's Oltra Mar is like, but we've already got Debussy and Sibelius. Also, some of her wave music there seems close to movie wave music. I've yet to detect much of a language sense in Lindberg's grimmer stuff, and I've tried and tried. (Lindberg's Clarinet Concerto does have a language sense, but so does Rhapsody In Blue.) Carter's no problem for me, if it's a good performance and I pay attention. That recent Bridge disc with the piano and chamber orchestra work Carter wrote for Nicholas Hodges is a gem. If you like Rautavaara -- I admit backing off quick from my only attempt to sample -- have you tried Tviett?

[rostasi]

I'll read this whole thing tomorrow after I get outta bed,

but for now: Never understood the Saariaho thing - empty calories

or maybe it had to do with her involvement in a project I was involved. <shrug>

I'm mostly with Larry on his picks too - (including Clem's mention of Madchen).

I'd add some others, but I need to read this thread to know what's goin' on...

Eötvos is a fine composer, instrumentalist (in his 1960/70's days esp.) and damn nice fellow!

g'nite,

Rod

[RDK]

Would I be out of line - or just plain dumb - to ask just what is considered the avante-garde these days... and perhaps more importantly: why is it considered so?