I think I'm done with buying Blue Notes on eBay

[Dmitry]

Preamble - I like to buy used LPs at record fairs and in stores, because I can examine them. The only records I buy on eBay are Mosaic sets that I missed on when they first came out. They usually are in pristine condition.

Problem is that most times there are virtually no Blue Note LPs to be found in stores or at record fairs. Dealers send them right through to eBay where they can get a higher premium, which is totally understood.

So I decided to give eBay at try and see what Blue Notes I can manage to score. In the last month I bought 6 Blue Notes, most described as either NM-, Excellent+ or VG++. So far I've received 4 of them, and none are in the condition described by the seller. The clincher was an LP that I splurged over $100 on, an original New York, USA pressing described as "NM, unplayed"; this dealer from Italy needs a thorough eye exam, because this is not a NM record by any stretch of imagination.

Another record was described as VG+,"one or two noisy spots". More like 1 or 2 noisy spots per revolution.

The other 2 were also graded too liberally.

All of them were purchased from dealers with 99% positive feedback.

Have I just been unlucky or is this some kind of a pattern?

[jazzhound]

Preamble - I like to buy used LPs at record fairs and in stores, because I can examine them. The only records I buy on eBay are Mosaic sets that I missed on when they first came out. They usually are in pristine condition.

Problem is that most times there are virtually no Blue Note LPs to be found in stores or at record fairs. Dealers send them right through to eBay where they can get a higher premium, which is totally understood.

So I decided to give eBay at try and see what Blue Notes I can manage to score. In the last month I bought 6 Blue Notes, most described as either NM-, Excellent+ or VG++. So far I've received 4 of them, and none are in the condition described by the seller. The clincher was an LP that I splurged over $100 on, an original New York, USA pressing described as "NM, unplayed"; this dealer from Italy needs a thorough eye exam, because this is not a NM record by any stretch of imagination.

Another record was described as VG+,"one or two noisy spots". More like 1 or 2 noisy spots per revolution.

The other 2 were also graded too liberally.

All of them were purchased from dealers with 99% positive feedback.

Have I just been unlucky or is this some kind of a pattern?

no, most of the records I have bought recently have been not accurately graded. I suprised that established dealers of jazz are giving you the shaft though. If I pay more that 10 bucks I only use PayPal and a credit card for insurance. alot of these wise guys give you a hard time on refunds.

[clifford_thornton]

eBay grading is usually dubious. I only buy from reputable off-eBay dealers or eBay sellers I've dealt with before. I mean, accidents happen, but more often with eBay.

I did luck out on a few pricey items recently that were actually clean, but with big-ticket pieces, I tend to buy from my "guys."

[jbs-tom]

oh yeah, that's the good ole NEAR MINT MINUS thing

best way is to buy them play graded - then the chances are higher to get a fine record.

i do not buy any more records which are not at least NM !

[brownie]

I'm not buying vinyls anymore. But when I was buying (and I bought plenty) I never went thru eBay.

I wanted to have a look at the stuff I was putting hard-earned money on to be sure the price was right!

Even then I bought several LPs that looked quasi pristine and turned out to have hidden problems (warp, tiny scratches...)

[Dmitry]

eBay grading is usually dubious. I only buy from reputable off-eBay dealers or eBay sellers I've dealt with before. I mean, accidents happen, but more often with eBay.

I did luck out on a few pricey items recently that were actually clean, but with big-ticket pieces, I tend to buy from my "guys."

Give us the names!

[michel1969]

eBay grading is usually dubious. I only buy from reputable off-eBay dealers or eBay sellers I've dealt with before. I mean, accidents happen, but more often with eBay.

I did luck out on a few pricey items recently that were actually clean, but with big-ticket pieces, I tend to buy from my "guys."

Give us the names!

Yes give us the names ! or at least Ebay names.

I've bought many records on Ebay, but NEVER an "heavy" Blue Note exept a NM copy of Roll Call, which IS really NM. That's all.

NEVER buy a record described as VG+ : it will be VG or worst in 99 % of the time.

It has been a long since i broke the bank with a heavy Blue Note record. In the place where i live, there are NO records at all. So the only source of Blue Note is from Ebay. Each time i see a heavy Blue Note, i'd like to bid on, i make up my mind and decide "NO" : because, prices are always insane, and condition will never be what expected. Dealers tend to overgrade their BN lp for sale, because they know that they will always find the fool who will bid at 320 % of the price for a supposed NM copy. I'm not in this game.

Forget about feedback. Most of the time, big japanese buyers,(for instance) leave positive, in order to avoid conflict. Most of the time, a non statisfied customer DOES NOT leave negative feedback, because he knows that it will have the same. So i really do not know what a "reputable dealer" means...

Let me tell you a story : three years ago, i bought a NM original copy of "Undercurrent" on Ebay. 345 $. I Paid with paypal. I NEVER got the record. Don't know why... the dealer NEVER answered any email. I left NEGATIVE. Guess what he did ? he LEFT me a NEGATIVE ! So the guy has my money, maybe my record (he was never able to prove he sent me), and rewarded me with a NEGATIVE, just because i left one !

The end of the story is : paypal refunded me, and i spent 20 $ for having my neg removed, after hours of hassle.

So, collect other labels...

[sonnyhill]

Poor grading on ebay is, in my experience, the rule and not the exception. I never pay big dollars for a record on ebay. The bad grading extends beyond Blue Notes though. For example, I recently won an auction for a copy of East Broadway Rundown that was listed on ebay as being NM and unplayed, but when I recieved it, the record was a VG at best with obvious surface markings and evidence of being heavily played. To make a long story short, I shot an email to the seller letting him know the problems and I returned the record for a refund and left neutral feedback. I believe that many people on ebay receive misgraded records, but fail to return them, which, in turn, emboldens sellers to practice "grade inflation." My advice would be to return all misgraded records and leave "neutral," at best, feedback. I believe If more people did that, the grade inflation would be curtailed somewhat.

On the positive side, I have gotten my hands on some steals on ebay. I've won auctions on some blue label Blue Notes listed as NM that were true to grade, relatively inexpensive, play wonderfully, and most importantly sound fantastic . So, as they say, you gotta be in it to win it, just hold every seller to his or her word concerning grading.

[Allan Songer]

eBay grading is usually dubious. I only buy from reputable off-eBay dealers or eBay sellers I've dealt with before. I mean, accidents happen, but more often with eBay.

I did luck out on a few pricey items recently that were actually clean, but with big-ticket pieces, I tend to buy from my "guys."

Give us the names!

Well, Ron NEVER overgrades anything (jazz5060). But get out your wallet, because the bidders know it!

The guys at Atomic are right on when they say something is NM, but are very generous otherwise.

Jazz Record Center is cool too . . .

[michel1969]

eBay grading is usually dubious. I only buy from reputable off-eBay dealers or eBay sellers I've dealt with before. I mean, accidents happen, but more often with eBay.

I did luck out on a few pricey items recently that were actually clean, but with big-ticket pieces, I tend to buy from my "guys."

Give us the names!

Well, Ron NEVER overgrades anything (jazz5060). But get out your wallet, because the bidders know it!

The guys at Atomic are right on when they say something is NM, but are very generous otherwise.

Jazz Record Center is cool too . . .

I agree with that short list. I especially like jazz record Center, for the tons of records i bought directly from Fred in the past and the friendly attitude, no matter what level of $$$$$$$. But for jazz5060, regarding the relationship its more than questionable.

Well in fact...if you want NM, and the smile (domo arigato) of the seller... pay high.

[Peter A]

Let me tell you a story : three years ago, i bought a NM original copy of "Undercurrent" on Ebay. 345 $. I Paid with paypal. I NEVER got the record. Don't know why... the dealer NEVER answered any email. I left NEGATIVE. Guess what he did ? he LEFT me a NEGATIVE ! So the guy has my money, maybe my record (he was never able to prove he sent me), and rewarded me with a NEGATIVE, just because i left one !

The end of the story is : paypal refunded me, and i spent 20 $ for having my neg removed, after hours of hassle.

Like Michel I had a problem with Undercurrent on eBay. In answer on my question the seller confirmed that the copy he offered for auction had 'ears' on both sides (it was not the one side DG version). I won the record for around $300. When the record arrived it appeared to have no ears, so it clearly was a reissue. After my complaints the seller asked me to return the record, which I did. I have never heard from him again...

I agree that sellers on eBay like Ron Rambach (jazz5060), JRC, Roundagain and a few others are reliable. Atomic is reliable with their grading, but not entirely with their descriptions. For instance they advertise some Blue Note copies as "original pressing with the RVG stamp in the dead wax" while these are clearly are reissues (Liberty era vinyl with old labels). So one should exactly now what to bid on with the records offered by Atomic.

I also agree that the prices of records offered by reliable sellers go through the roof on eBay. For that reason I rarely buy on eBay anymore and buy a lot from private dealers here in the Netherlands.

Regards,

Peter

[michel1969]

I also agree that the prices of records offered by reliable sellers go through the roof on eBay. For that reason I rarely buy on eBay anymore and buy a lot from private dealers here in the Netherlands.

Regards,

Peter

Its obviously the best option. Ebay's suitable only for the "rare but not sought after records" But as the years go, i've noticed how difficult it is to find fine record in shops. In Paris, even for a regular customer like me, most dealers hide their finest record, either for the "best" customers (often means Japaneses or Koreans) or for Ebay. And sometimes even, if you are willing to pay high prices, they'll tell you that they have nothing.

[Dmitry]

I added -

roundagain

jazzrecordcenter

jazz5060

to my favorite seller list.

Funny, Round Again Records is about 20 minutes away from me. I just bought some records from Steve yesterday night. What a delightful man to deal with! We also had a discussion on Blue Notes and other original pressings. He puts them right on eBay. First of all, they may sit in the store for months, while they're gone in a matter of days on eBay. Second, a lot of times people who browse these expensive records destroy them by being very rough.

Jazz Record Center is a famous store, I've been there a few times; as a matter of fact I've bought some records from Fred Cohen just 2 weeks ago.

[Peter A]

But as the years go, i've noticed how difficult it is to find fine record in shops. In Paris, even for a regular customer like me, most dealers hide their finest record, either for the "best" customers (often means Japaneses or Koreans) or for Ebay. And sometimes even, if you are willing to pay high prices, they'll tell you that they have nothing.

It's common practice now in shops all over the world. Even a shop like JRC in New York, which buys and sells many records, keeps the rare items for eBay. Only the ones which are not suitable for auction (e.g. small scuffs or slightly damaged jackets) are offered in the shop.

Speaking about damaged covers: a couple of years ago the largest second hand store in Amsterdam bought a very large (6000) collection of jazz records (only originals). The good news is that I was able to buy many, many LP's, also rare Blue Notes like Hank Mobley (1568), Candy and True Blue. Pricing was based on the Umphred Rolling Stone Record Guide (fortunately often much lower). The bad news is that almost all covers have writing - sometimes severe - on the back; sometimes the previous owner even cut out photo's from the back of the jacket with a razor blade! One of the worst cases is True Blue, where he cut out the very small photo of Tina Brooks from the front jacket . Fortunately a lot of the others have escaped his scalpel and only have numbers and name stamps on the back...

[Dan Gould]

As far as the feedback question goes, if I get a mis-graded LP, if the dealer acknowledges it and agrees to a refund, I will post, at worst, neutral feedback to let people know that grading is spotty. But I've even given positive feedback after such an experience, provided that the dealer comes across as legitimately apologetic and wants to make things right. People make mistakes, but if they're committed to correcting them, I think that should be encouraged.

[Allan Songer]

I still roll the dice on ebay a few times every month--once in a while I get burned, but never for a high dollar record. If I'm going to spend $$$ on something I have to know the seller.

That said, some of THE best "deals" I have ever made came from ebay in 1998-2000. I bought a PERFECT "Soul Station" for $35, a NM Kenny Dorham "Bohemia" (Lexington, flat edge) for $50, etc.

So I will ALWAYS have fond feelings toward ebay, even if the salad days are long past . . .

[clifford_thornton]

Damn, those are some good deals. I was pleased with some cheap scores back then, too, though nothing as serious as those. EBay is pretty much over for that kind of thing, and the grading of many sellers has certainly gone downhill. Atomic is pretty good, though, as are Academy, JRR and JRC.

Mostly I buy from Japanese dealers off-eBay, and rarely any original BN or other early hardbop titles (content with reissues or CDs for a lot of that stuff). I buy almost exclusively free jazz and improvised music, as many of you know, so some of my seller suggestions would be moot.

[sidewinder]

The one great deal I have had on ebay for Blue Note originals was a really excellent Sonny Rollins Vol 2 47W63rd DG mono for $60 on a 'buy it now'. That was about 1 year ago ! The roughest pressing I have picked up (there haven't been many - and amazingly this one still sounds OK) was a George Braith. The saving grace was that George had signed it on the back ('To Foxy' so I guess it was to a lady friend.)

Edited November 21, 2006 by sidewinder

[michel1969]

Speaking about damaged covers: a couple of years ago the largest second hand store in Amsterdam bought a very large (6000) collection of jazz records (only originals). The good news is that I was able to buy many, many LP's, also rare Blue Notes like Hank Mobley (1568), Candy and True Blue. Pricing was based on the Umphred Rolling Stone Record Guide (fortunately often much lower). The bad news is that almost all covers have writing - sometimes severe - on the back; sometimes the previous owner even cut out photo's from the back of the jacket with a razor blade! One of the worst cases is True Blue, where he cut out the very small photo of Tina Brooks from the front jacket . Fortunately a lot of the others have escaped his scalpel and only have numbers and name stamps on the back...

You could repair it with care and patience, if you sacrify a King or Toshiba cover...

[michel1969]

I still roll the dice on ebay a few times every month--once in a while I get burned, but never for a high dollar record. If I'm going to spend $$$ on something I have to know the seller.

That said, some of THE best "deals" I have ever made came from ebay in 1998-2000. I bought a PERFECT "Soul Station" for $35, a NM Kenny Dorham "Bohemia" (Lexington, flat edge) for $50, etc.

So I will ALWAYS have fond feelings toward ebay, even if the salad days are long past . . .

Yeah 1998-2000, those were the days... it was still possible to score heavy BN on shops at ridiculous prices, even in record ship (it was bafore the sellers began to know how to read a book !)

1541 NM lex at 20 €, 1581 First at 35 €...glory days !!

[Hoppy T. Frog]

Damn, those are some good deals. I was pleased with some cheap scores back then, too, though nothing as serious as those. EBay is pretty much over for that kind of thing, and the grading of many sellers has certainly gone downhill. Atomic is pretty good, though, as are Academy, JRR and JRC.

Mostly I buy from Japanese dealers off-eBay, and rarely any original BN or other early hardbop titles (content with reissues or CDs for a lot of that stuff). I buy almost exclusively free jazz and improvised music, as many of you know, so some of my seller suggestions would be moot.

I'd be interested.

[jbs-tom]

OK THATS IT FOR ME TOO

JUST GOT 2 BLUE NOTE ORIGINALS (HANCOCK MAIDEN VOYAGE MONO * FUEGO BYRD MONO) BOTH DESCRIBED AS NEAR MINT !

YOU KNOW WHAT I GOT:

BOTH RECORDS WITH FEELABLE AND AUDIBLE MARKS !!

FORGET IT

[sidewinder]

That 'Fuego' can be a variable one. The first copy of the 47W63rd I got (from France) was a total dog. Looked fine visually but turned out to be badly worn - so sent it back.

My second copy (archival quality) was much, much better.

Edited November 23, 2006 by sidewinder

[michel1969]

OK THATS IT FOR ME TOO

JUST GOT 2 BLUE NOTE ORIGINALS (HANCOCK MAIDEN VOYAGE MONO * FUEGO BYRD MONO) BOTH DESCRIBED AS NEAR MINT !

YOU KNOW WHAT I GOT:

BOTH RECORDS WITH FEELABLE AND AUDIBLE MARKS !!

FORGET IT

The problem on Ebay : as soon as you decide it, you'll browse and find another one... and bid on it ! Bought my NM Maiden Voyage from Jeff Barr 5 years ago. At this time it was not considered as a heavy one...

[jbs-tom]

OK THATS IT FOR ME TOO

JUST GOT 2 BLUE NOTE ORIGINALS (HANCOCK MAIDEN VOYAGE MONO * FUEGO BYRD MONO) BOTH DESCRIBED AS NEAR MINT !

YOU KNOW WHAT I GOT:

BOTH RECORDS WITH FEELABLE AND AUDIBLE MARKS !!

FORGET IT

The problem on Ebay : as soon as you decide it, you'll browse and find another one... and bid on it ! Bought my NM Maiden Voyage from Jeff Barr 5 years ago. At this time it was not considered as a heavy one...

... thats right, stop browsing is the best way otherwise you are lost in the next crazy bidding !