Ayler recommendations

[B. Clugston]

I think the Ayler tree that got sort of useless now that the HG box is out, included an alternate take from one cut on "Prophecy", which is not in the box.

I think the alternate take on the Ayler tree was from Spiritual Unity, not Prophecy. That track appeared on the the first pressings of Spiritual Unity and one Japanese reissue. Should Bernard Stollman ever get around to doing his own box set, it should appear there. It wasn't on the last ESP reissue.

There have been all sorts of ownership issues over the Cellar Cafe material, which is why they have never beenissued together, other than briefly on Albert Smiles with Sonny.

[ep1str0phy]

Strange there isn't a single CD issue of Prophecy. All I can think of is that 2CD set with all the Cellar material that somebody issued in the mid-90s (can't remember and don't feel like looking it up), and you have half of that on HG. I like Prophecy pretty well; have had it on ESP vinyl for years and it definitely feels different than Spiritual Unity - more open and bled-out, if you catch my drift.

Edit: didn't see you got a CD of it. Is this the combined session with "Bells" or some bootleg insanity that I was unaware of?

This is the only "single" CD issue of Prophecy (readily) available:

Prophecy

It was in the 2002 batch of Caliber reissues, although why anyone would buy it over the twofer is beyond me (assuming they didn't already have Bells...)

Edited December 6, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[king ubu]

I think the Ayler tree that got sort of useless now that the HG box is out, included an alternate take from one cut on "Prophecy", which is not in the box.

I think the alternate take on the Ayler tree was from Spiritual Unity, not Prophecy. That track appeared on the the first pressings of Spiritual Unity and one Japanese reissue. Should Bernard Stollman ever get around to doing his own box set, it should appear there. It wasn't on the last ESP reissue.

You're right, I remembered that wrongly.

Nate, the vinyl dub of "Bells/Prophecy" I have is on GetBack, which has licensed it from Abraxas or something. It's a mini LP package and says it's limited to 1000 (I have "Spirits Rejoice" in a like edition). Anyway, I wonder if the Abraxas jewel case version omitting "Bells" is also a needle drop?

This is the edition I have: AMG

Calibre (right, AMG spells it wrongly) had also done a "Bells" only, 20 minute CD.

[couw]

Calibre (right, AMG spells it wrongly) had also done a "Bells" only, 20 minute CD.

that's the one I have. It's a clear CD without any text on it. It says Abraxas/ESP-Disk (Italy).

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you guys are way to lacicdazical about this: i still havent even been able to get the "spirit box" open

[king ubu]

Calibre (right, AMG spells it wrongly) had also done a "Bells" only, 20 minute CD.

that's the one I have. It's a clear CD without any text on it. It says Abraxas/ESP-Disk (Italy).

No, I meant the Calibre issue (those are the ones where the jewel cases are packed in a red cardboard box with a small cover reproduction on front - yet another of ESP's licencees, I think (not from Italy but I think from the Netherlands).

This one I meant:

But is yours from vinyl, too, couw? They also did "Spiritual Unity" and "NY Eye and Ear Control" (as well as some non Ayler ESPs), and it seems these were much nicer editions than the Abraxas ones, which have minimal cover, and often no info about recording dates (except maybe on that sheet wrapped around the jewel case).

Calibres:

Abraxases:

The NY E&E is actually not an Abraxas, but only came out as a GetBack mini LP, as far as I know (also previously on ZYX, as did the whole - or almost complete? - ESP catalogue). Not sure if "Bells" above is Abraxas or GetBack only with this cover (couw? same cover?).

Pretty chaotic, but from my experience I would proceed like this:

1) get ESPs own new CDs if available [i'll need to get "Slugs" in this version], if not, then

2) try to find Calibre reissues (red cardboard things around jeweil cases) [i have "NY E&E" in such an edition], of you can't find, get

3) Abraxas jewel case [i have "Spiritual Unity" like this], if you can't find, get

4) ZYX (long gone, but you might find some used on in some local shops), and last, if you can't find any of the above, get

5) GetBack mini LPs (needle drops, limited, thus likely not an option, but no sleep to be lost because of these being gone... they were feghing expensive and cheaply produced) [i have "Bells/Prophecy" and "Spirits Rejoice" in this form]

Now for sure not each album has appeared in all of these five forms, but that would be my rating in how to proceed. This same procedure is adoptable for other ESPs, too... I guess it's best just to hope that there'll be more of their own reissues. THe Marion Brown Quartet, for instance, is absolutely great, and it has more music, better sound (different speed, too, if compared to the Abraxas jewel case version), and great photos and new liners to offer, so these are definitely the best ones!

(As a sidenote: Calibre and also the earlier ZYX versions had ample documentation of ESP in each booklet, nice, but the new ESP ones are still better....)

[king ubu]

you guys are way to lacicdazical about this: i still havent even been able to get the "spirit box" open

Need to borrow an axe?

[couw]

Calibre (right, AMG spells it wrongly) had also done a "Bells" only, 20 minute CD.

that's the one I have. It's a clear CD without any text on it. It says Abraxas/ESP-Disk (Italy).

No, I meant the Calibre issue (those are the ones where the jewel cases are packed in a red cardboard box with a small cover reproduction on front - yet another of ESP's licencees, I think (not from Italy but I think from the Netherlands).

my Bells is not a needle drop. It has a black cover with orange print and there was a wrap around that I put in a box somewhere.

I also have NYE&EC and Spirits Rejoice from the same Abraxas series.

[king ubu]

Calibre (right, AMG spells it wrongly) had also done a "Bells" only, 20 minute CD.

that's the one I have. It's a clear CD without any text on it. It says Abraxas/ESP-Disk (Italy).

No, I meant the Calibre issue (those are the ones where the jewel cases are packed in a red cardboard box with a small cover reproduction on front - yet another of ESP's licencees, I think (not from Italy but I think from the Netherlands).

my Bells is not a needle drop. It has a black cover with orange print and there was a wrap around that I put in a box somewhere.

I also have NYE&EC and Spirits Rejoice from the same Abraxas series.

Thanks! So these expensive GetBack needle drops (only ones I could find when I wanted these Aylers - that was before my internet CD buying days) are indeed the worst option... I assume I need to get some other versions, eventually. That confirms my rating... at least as far as Abraxas vs. GetBack is concerned.

[clifford_thornton]

The ESP CD licensing fiasco was/is pretty astounding. Stollman talks about it a bit here:

Stollman at AAJ

I'm not surprised the Abraxas were needle-drops; to my ears, the Calibres I've heard have sounded fine. Of course, the new ESP reissues are great, though much of what they are concentrating on is archival/new material.

[king ubu]

I'm not surprised the Abraxas were needle-drops; to my ears, the Calibres I've heard have sounded fine.

I don't think the Abraxas releases are needle drops, it's the GetBack ones (sub-licensed to GetBack by Abraxas, I think). couw states above that the Abraxas 20min CD of "Bells" is not a needle drop, and I think my Abraxas "Spiritual Unity" (and "Why Not" by M. Brown) aren't needle drops, either. So it's probably only those GetBack mini LPs that are needle drops.

[clifford_thornton]

I can't keep it all straight... that whiskey last night didn't help, either.

[king ubu]

I can't keep it all straight... that whiskey last night didn't help, either.

It's tough to keep it straight, but it seems to be like this or similar:

ZYX (German) licencsed the whole catalogue

ZYX (not ESP themselves, as Stollman says in the interview above) sub-licensed it to Abraxas and/or GetBack (Italian - there seems to be a connection between them, maybe the one I mentioned, that GetBack was in fact another sub-license).

And ZYX (or ESP? Didn't read the interview closely enough) also (sub-)licensed some to Calibre (Dutch)

The ZYX deal ended quite some time ago, or they just stopped pressing their stuff once the Italians were in action. The Italian and Dutch discs is what was available before ESP got activated again a couple of years ago, and the Italian discs are still all over the web and shops (which Stollman mentions, and it's disgusting indeed that they don't get pulled now, but on the other hand they have many items in print that ESP has not yet come around to reissuing - the backside being that it might be unfeasible for ESP to reissue a particular title since it's already around and there may be no market for their own reissue).

It's all pretty complicated... and if I hadn't, over the years, acquired discs from all these license holders (or bootleggers), I wouldn't have been bothered to check out the situation at all.

[brownie]

My recollection of this is that the ESP discs came out first in Italy via the Base label. Then ZYX took over the ESP business. The deal was supposed to be pretty limited in time but ZYX just went at it for years!

[king ubu]

Base is not in my scheme (probably because indeed they were earlier and I just wasn't buying any weird stuff back then). Stollman says in that interview that ZYX passed on the license to Abraxas/Get Back... it's only those Italians I meant. Base releases are also mentioned on the Ayler site. Was that in the CD age or before?