Other John Patton discs ?

[AndrewHill]

Well since this thread's here, I'm a huge BJP fan, especially of his 'second' stint at Blue Note. Favorite is 'Understanding' which help me understand what a gifted musician he is. Hugh Walker is a mofo of a drummer, and Harold Alexander brought the goods (I do remember seeing a thread about him some time ago). Even if it seems that Big John was not entirely comfortable with the music, the tunes are just badass. Second fav, has to be 'Boogaloo'. I like parts of MTNYS, especially his version of Footprints. AOTB just hasn't entirely caught on with me, although I try to play it on occasion and see if it clicks. Early Patton has to be 'Let 'em Roll'. Love Hutch and Patton together.

[Soul Stream]

Well since this thread's here, I'm a huge BJP fan, especially of his 'second' stint at Blue Note. Favorite is 'Understanding' which help me understand what a gifted musician he is. Hugh Walker is a mofo of a drummer, and Harold Alexander brought the goods (I do remember seeing a thread about him some time ago). Even if it seems that Big John was not entirely comfortable with the music, the tunes are just badass. Second fav, has to be 'Boogaloo'. I like parts of MTNYS, especially his version of Footprints. AOTB just hasn't entirely caught on with me, although I try to play it on occasion and see if it clicks. Early Patton has to be 'Let 'em Roll'. Love Hutch and Patton together.

Yes...have you listened to That Certain Feeling? It's only CD release was on the John Patton Mosaic Select. If you haven't, I would suggest that's another one you would enjoy if you like his later Blue Note work. The depth of "Understanding", even after years and years of studying it, always amazes me. Especially considering the fact that when Alexander isn't soling or playing the head...the album is essentially John Patton and drums. That takes total musicianship. Patton was a musical giant.

[AndrewHill]

Well since this thread's here, I'm a huge BJP fan, especially of his 'second' stint at Blue Note. Favorite is 'Understanding' which help me understand what a gifted musician he is. Hugh Walker is a mofo of a drummer, and Harold Alexander brought the goods (I do remember seeing a thread about him some time ago). Even if it seems that Big John was not entirely comfortable with the music, the tunes are just badass. Second fav, has to be 'Boogaloo'. I like parts of MTNYS, especially his version of Footprints. AOTB just hasn't entirely caught on with me, although I try to play it on occasion and see if it clicks. Early Patton has to be 'Let 'em Roll'. Love Hutch and Patton together.

Yes...have you listened to That Certain Feeling? It's only CD release was on the John Patton Mosaic Select. If you haven't, I would suggest that's another one you would enjoy if you like his later Blue Note work. The depth of "Understanding", even after years and years of studying it, always amazes me. Especially considering the fact that when Alexander isn't soling or playing the head...the album is essentially John Patton and drums. That takes total musicianship. Patton was a musical giant.

I haven't, but I'd like to. Who's on that date? I agree, that at times 'Understanding' sounds like a duo record. Man, to have a record with just Patton and Walker would've been badass. Understanding was my first and still favorite disc, I never get tired of it.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Holy Ghost

[Soul Stream]

That Certain Feeling has....

Clifford Jarvis-drums

Jimmy Ponder-guitar

Junior Cook-tenor sax

AMAZING session!

[B. Clugston]

I always like Patton best when its just him and drums. Too bad there was no duo album (at least not one that I know of).

This thread keeps going despite the initial cranky rebuttals.

[Guest donald petersen]

i really like leroy williams drumming with patton and agree it is a stupid comment by hunter.

his playing is loose and open but i think it adds to the feel of the albums he is on with patton not being run of the mill organ sessions. on AOTB, the drum sound is totally screwed up though-sounds phased or something on a lot of the songs. sort of trippy.

leroy williams is on the excellent barry harris trio album "magnificent". i think that is what it is called. it is contemperaneous to the patton albums.

in the liner notes to MTNYS, pekar kind of rips on marvin cabell but not williams.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

chewy has been down in the dumps and i insisted that DB4EVA pray to BJP beacuse there was nothing else left to turn to. nothing else to do but pray to BJP- and for the most part, IT WORKED. IT WORKED. BJP thank you for everything

[Niko]

Is it possible to get to those AOTW threads from the search engine. I'm sure JamesTrane would enjoy reading them. hope he's still here. Maybe someone who knows how can make a link or give the info as to what weeks they were.

there is this aotw list thread:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=2610

[AndrewHill]

Leroy Williams is a good fit for Patton, although I much prefer Hugh Walker. I think Hugh pushed Patton to play harder and that's why I think 'Understanding' is such a good session. In a lot of respects, I can't imaginine anyone else filling the drum chair on that album; he was perfect. Alexander also pushed Patton into more avant garde leanings, which is also prevalent on Boogaloo. So the combination of Walker and Alexander was a dream team for Patton-they all played their asses off on that album. In fact, it was 'Understanding' that turned me into an Alexander fan. I think part of the problem for me on AOTB is the very loose heads at the beginning of the tunes, especially on 'Rakin and Scrapin.' Even the solos don't sound entirely inspired. Maybe there just wasn't enough practice time or everyone was exausted. But I don't think Williams is the source of the problem at all. I also like his contribution to MTNYS as well. A solid player. Now Clifford Jarvis would be interesting to hear with Patton. Respect his work quite a bit, especially with Ra and Jackie Mac (Right Now!). Guess I'll have to wait for the single issue of 'That Certain Feeling.'

[Soul Stream]

Leroy Williams is a good fit for Patton, although I much prefer Hugh Walker. I think Hugh pushed Patton to play harder and that's why I think 'Understanding' is such a good session. In a lot of respects, I can't imaginine anyone else filling the drum chair on that album; he was perfect. Alexander also pushed Patton into more avant garde leanings, which is also prevalent on Boogaloo. So the combination of Walker and Alexander was a dream team for Patton-they all played their asses off on that album. In fact, it was 'Understanding' that turned me into an Alexander fan. I think part of the problem for me on AOTB is the very loose heads at the beginning of the tunes, especially on 'Rakin and Scrapin.' Even the solos don't sound entirely inspired. Maybe there just wasn't enough practice time or everyone was exausted. But I don't think Williams is the source of the problem at all. I also like his contribution to MTNYS as well. A solid player. Now Clifford Jarvis would be interesting to hear with Patton. Respect his work quite a bit, especially with Ra and Jackie Mac (Right Now!). Guess I'll have to wait for the single issue of 'That Certain Feeling.'

I think the thing that you'll notice about Patton's work is that he was always a group player. AOTB is really a superb performance. I know what you mean about the head on Rakin' & Scrapin'. Especially the outro head which the horn player messes up, but they continue on. That tune is essentially a showcase for Blood Ulmer which shows you how much of a giving personality Patton had on the bandstand. I'll have to disagree in your assumption that this was a tired or under-rehearsed group. I just don't hear that. To my ears, it just sounds like the emphasis had changed. Loose in the way Mile's Marathon sessions were in the sense that this was a working group that just came in and played. And if there were flaws, so be it as long as the performances were there. Patton plays some of his most amazing things on AOTB such as Lite Hit, ect. If anyone person adds a particular loose feel to me, it's Blood. He's super behind the beat on this record. Really pulling on Leroy Williams and Patton's basslines. Marvin Cabell always said Hugh Walker was the guy that fit best with the group. These guys really worked the road together and the empathy between Patton and Walker is just hand in glove.

[K1969]

I think Hugh pushed Patton to play harder and that's why I think 'Understanding' is such a good session. In a lot of respects, I can't imaginine anyone else filling the drum chair on that album; he was perfect. Alexander also pushed Patton into more avant garde leanings, which is also prevalent on Boogaloo. So the combination of Walker and Alexander was a dream team for Patton-they all played their asses off on that album. In fact, it was 'Understanding' that turned me into an Alexander fan.

I totally agree, and in perfect inverse proportion to the AllMusic Guide review:

"Review by Michael Erlewine

Patton with saxman Harold Alexander and drums. Alexander is playing sax that is just a tad too "out" for an organ combo than is standard for soul jazz, thus turning the sound toward something other than a real groove. If you like progressive sax, you might be able to stay in the groove. Not me, the sound keeps popping me out. I like to get in the groove and ride. "

Nothing against Michael Erlewine but it seems illogical to ask a fan of organ funk only to review BJP.

[Soul Stream]

kperry4@carolina.rr.comI totally agree, and in perfect inverse proportion to the AllMusic Guide review:

"Review by Michael Erlewine

Patton with saxman Harold Alexander and drums. Alexander is playing sax that is just a tad too "out" for an organ combo than is standard for soul jazz, thus turning the sound toward something other than a real groove. If you like progressive sax, you might be able to stay in the groove. Not me, the sound keeps popping me out. I like to get in the groove and ride. "

Nothing against Michael Erlewine but it seems illogical to ask a fan of organ funk only to review BJP.

Of course, when Mosaic reissued this....all of a sudden the session was amazing (as usual for allmusic guide's review of Mosaic sets)

On the final session here, Understanding, the sound cut even closer to the bone: Harold Alexander was enlisted on tenor and flute, with drummer Hugh Walker the only other musician involved. The trio played all around the groove jazz sound, while turning it inside out in Alexander's out-ish honking solos. Patton's organ is way up in the mix, shape-shifting time signatures inside a 2/4 meter. The pace is aggressive, deep, and at times dissonant, making an excellent case for reappraisal here, as it dates better than anything else on this set. All in all, this is a deep, sometimes mystifying collection featuring Patton as a composer, bandleader, and arranger. His sense of rhythmic dynamics is among the most sophisticated in the history of the jazz B-3. There isn't a weak second on any of this material and it should be snapped up before Mosaic's copies go — they do not reissue. Blue Note should take the cue, do the entire catalog in 24-bit audio, and hustle it out there.

[K1969]

kperry4@carolina.rr.comI totally agree, and in perfect inverse proportion to the AllMusic Guide review:

"Review by Michael Erlewine

Patton with saxman Harold Alexander and drums. Alexander is playing sax that is just a tad too "out" for an organ combo than is standard for soul jazz, thus turning the sound toward something other than a real groove. If you like progressive sax, you might be able to stay in the groove. Not me, the sound keeps popping me out. I like to get in the groove and ride. "

Nothing against Michael Erlewine but it seems illogical to ask a fan of organ funk only to review BJP.

Of course, when Mosaic reissued this....all of a sudden the session was amazing (as usual for allmusic guide's review of Mosaic sets)

On the final session here, Understanding, the sound cut even closer to the bone: Harold Alexander was enlisted on tenor and flute, with drummer Hugh Walker the only other musician involved. The trio played all around the groove jazz sound, while turning it inside out in Alexander's out-ish honking solos. Patton's organ is way up in the mix, shape-shifting time signatures inside a 2/4 meter. The pace is aggressive, deep, and at times dissonant, making an excellent case for reappraisal here, as it dates better than anything else on this set. All in all, this is a deep, sometimes mystifying collection featuring Patton as a composer, bandleader, and arranger. His sense of rhythmic dynamics is among the most sophisticated in the history of the jazz B-3. There isn't a weak second on any of this material and it should be snapped up before Mosaic's copies go — they do not reissue. Blue Note should take the cue, do the entire catalog in 24-bit audio, and hustle it out there.

Well spotted. My only gripe with Understanding is the sound. I would have preferred Walker's drums higher in the mix. Also and he and Alexander sound somewhat muffled - there are none of the crisp, clear edges that you get on other blue note sides. ......grump, moan....I guess I was spoilt as a child.

[AndrewHill]

Leroy Williams is a good fit for Patton, although I much prefer Hugh Walker. I think Hugh pushed Patton to play harder and that's why I think 'Understanding' is such a good session. In a lot of respects, I can't imaginine anyone else filling the drum chair on that album; he was perfect. Alexander also pushed Patton into more avant garde leanings, which is also prevalent on Boogaloo. So the combination of Walker and Alexander was a dream team for Patton-they all played their asses off on that album. In fact, it was 'Understanding' that turned me into an Alexander fan. I think part of the problem for me on AOTB is the very loose heads at the beginning of the tunes, especially on 'Rakin and Scrapin.' Even the solos don't sound entirely inspired. Maybe there just wasn't enough practice time or everyone was exausted. But I don't think Williams is the source of the problem at all. I also like his contribution to MTNYS as well. A solid player. Now Clifford Jarvis would be interesting to hear with Patton. Respect his work quite a bit, especially with Ra and Jackie Mac (Right Now!). Guess I'll have to wait for the single issue of 'That Certain Feeling.'

I think the thing that you'll notice about Patton's work is that he was always a group player. AOTB is really a superb performance. I know what you mean about the head on Rakin' & Scrapin'. Especially the outro head which the horn player messes up, but they continue on. That tune is essentially a showcase for Blood Ulmer which shows you how much of a giving personality Patton had on the bandstand. I'll have to disagree in your assumption that this was a tired or under-rehearsed group. I just don't hear that. To my ears, it just sounds like the emphasis had changed. Loose in the way Mile's Marathon sessions were in the sense that this was a working group that just came in and played. And if there were flaws, so be it as long as the performances were there. Patton plays some of his most amazing things on AOTB such as Lite Hit, ect. If anyone person adds a particular loose feel to me, it's Blood. He's super behind the beat on this record. Really pulling on Leroy Williams and Patton's basslines. Marvin Cabell always said Hugh Walker was the guy that fit best with the group. These guys really worked the road together and the empathy between Patton and Walker is just hand in glove.

Ok, I went back and listened to AOTB again, and based on what you were saying, I was able to listen to it from a different perspective. Besides 'Rakin and Scrapin, which still sounds a little rough around the edges, the playing seems to be a lot tighter from there on, especially on 'Captain Nasty,' 'Village Lee,' and Lite Hit.' In addition, Leroy William's drumming really stands out this time around, even more than before, and I think that he's an important contribution to this session. I'm really glad I have this cd, and Patton is like that for me: I may not get something that he's doing at first, but eventually it clicks. Today, AOTB clicked. Thank you.

[sidewinder]

On the final session here, Understanding, the sound cut even closer to the bone: Harold Alexander was enlisted on tenor and flute, with drummer Hugh Walker the only other musician involved. The trio played all around the groove jazz sound, while turning it inside out in Alexander's out-ish honking solos. Patton's organ is way up in the mix, shape-shifting time signatures inside a 2/4 meter. The pace is aggressive, deep, and at times dissonant, making an excellent case for reappraisal here, as it dates better than anything else on this set. All in all, this is a deep, sometimes mystifying collection featuring Patton as a composer, bandleader, and arranger. His sense of rhythmic dynamics is among the most sophisticated in the history of the jazz B-3. There isn't a weak second on any of this material and it should be snapped up before Mosaic's copies go — they do not reissue. Blue Note should take the cue, do the entire catalog in 24-bit audio, and hustle it out there.

That's a bit more like it. I always thought that original review of 'Understanding' was total BS. Couldn't believe it was the same session as the one I was acquainted with !

[K1969]

kperry4@carolina.rr.comI totally agree, and in perfect inverse proportion to the AllMusic Guide review:

"Review by Michael Erlewine

Patton with saxman Harold Alexander and drums. Alexander is playing sax that is just a tad too "out" for an organ combo than is standard for soul jazz, thus turning the sound toward something other than a real groove. If you like progressive sax, you might be able to stay in the groove. Not me, the sound keeps popping me out. I like to get in the groove and ride. "

Nothing against Michael Erlewine but it seems illogical to ask a fan of organ funk only to review BJP.

Of course, when Mosaic reissued this....all of a sudden the session was amazing (as usual for allmusic guide's review of Mosaic sets)

On the final session here, Understanding, the sound cut even closer to the bone: Harold Alexander was enlisted on tenor and flute, with drummer Hugh Walker the only other musician involved. The trio played all around the groove jazz sound, while turning it inside out in Alexander's out-ish honking solos. Patton's organ is way up in the mix, shape-shifting time signatures inside a 2/4 meter. The pace is aggressive, deep, and at times dissonant, making an excellent case for reappraisal here, as it dates better than anything else on this set. All in all, this is a deep, sometimes mystifying collection featuring Patton as a composer, bandleader, and arranger. His sense of rhythmic dynamics is among the most sophisticated in the history of the jazz B-3. There isn't a weak second on any of this material and it should be snapped up before Mosaic's copies go — they do not reissue. Blue Note should take the cue, do the entire catalog in 24-bit audio, and hustle it out there.

AMG adds contradiciton to contradiction in praising Boogaloo for the exact same reason that they dissed Understanding - namely Harold ALexander:

"Review by Scott Yanow

"The main reason to purchase this previously unissued set from the declining years of Blue Note is not for the trivial rhythmic themes (which use fairly basic chord sequences) or even the solos of organist John Patton (who never does escape entirely from the shadow of Jimmy Smith) but for the somewhat out-of-place avant-garde outbursts by Harold Alexander (on tenor and flute) who often takes improvisations that go completely outside; his squeals on "Boogaloo Boogie" are a real surprise and he may very well be the reason that this music was not put out at the time. Otherwise this is a routine and now-dated set of commercial late-'60s jazz/funk. "

I'm trying hard not to be a musical fascist and I think its measured of me to say that statements like "trivial rhythmic themes" or "routine and now dated commerical late 60s jazz/funk" merit a few years of quiet reflection in the gulag.

Edited May 4, 2007 by K1969

[Soul Stream]

"Review by Scott Yanow

"The main reason to purchase this previously unissued set from the declining years of Blue Note is not for the trivial rhythmic themes (which use fairly basic chord sequences) or even the solos of organist John Patton (who never does escape entirely from the shadow of Jimmy Smith) but for the somewhat out-of-place avant-garde outbursts by Harold Alexander (on tenor and flute) who often takes improvisations that go completely outside; his squeals on "Boogaloo Boogie" are a real surprise and he may very well be the reason that this music was not put out at the time. Otherwise this is a routine and now-dated set of commercial late-'60s jazz/funk. "

I'm trying hard not to be a musical fascist and I think its measured of me to say that statements like "trivial rhythmic themes" or "routine and now dated commerical late 60s jazz/funk" merit a few years of quiet reflection in the gulag.

I guess you weren't here when there were some fireworks on this very subject when Scott Yanow visited the forum a while back. I'm sure the thread's here somewhere. Needless to say, there's varying opinions on this music. Pre-Mosaic Select, the Allmusic critics didn't know this was suppose to be hip, great music. After Mosaic signaled them it was...they changed their tune. Scott Yanow's take on it was pedestrian at best, and blasphemus at worst.

[Guest donald petersen]

well the penguin guide also ripped the dip when it came to patton's blue note albums.

i remember a particularly negative remark about "understanding" or at least maybe um the tune congo chant? is that a tune on there? saying patton's solo took a long time going nowhere, basically.

i feel the compositions on "boogaloo" are a little lame. i mentioned this in another thread. i like the MTNYS and AOTB tunes better, though a lot of them were composed by other musicians.

[K1969]

"Review by Scott Yanow

"The main reason to purchase this previously unissued set from the declining years of Blue Note is not for the trivial rhythmic themes (which use fairly basic chord sequences) or even the solos of organist John Patton (who never does escape entirely from the shadow of Jimmy Smith) but for the somewhat out-of-place avant-garde outbursts by Harold Alexander (on tenor and flute) who often takes improvisations that go completely outside; his squeals on "Boogaloo Boogie" are a real surprise and he may very well be the reason that this music was not put out at the time. Otherwise this is a routine and now-dated set of commercial late-'60s jazz/funk. "

I'm trying hard not to be a musical fascist and I think its measured of me to say that statements like "trivial rhythmic themes" or "routine and now dated commerical late 60s jazz/funk" merit a few years of quiet reflection in the gulag.

I guess you weren't here when there were some fireworks on this very subject when Scott Yanow visited the forum a while back. I'm sure the thread's here somewhere. Needless to say, there's varying opinions on this music. Pre-Mosaic Select, the Allmusic critics didn't know this was suppose to be hip, great music. After Mosaic signaled them it was...they changed their tune. Scott Yanow's take on it was pedestrian at best, and blasphemus at worst.

I'll dig into the previous threads. (there's more on BJP here than any other artist it seems)

I'm listening to B & J (Two Sisters) as I write this and as always it blows me away. Musical criticism, like music itself, can of course be good, bad and mediocre. To just wheel out formulaic, standardized clichés like "commercial" and "dated" (so what?) when the music is trying -successfully or not - to challenge, suggests that what mattered most to Yanow wasn't the music but the sell by date on the tin - "from the declining years of Blue Note" - as if it sufficed to read the label: Division of Liberty - to be consumed before 1968. I'm not saying he has to like it, but he could at least make an effort. But it's his critique, not the music, that sounds more like a product of the factory process line.

Edited May 4, 2007 by K1969

[K1969]

i remember a particularly negative remark about "understanding" or at least maybe um the tune congo chant? is that a tune on there?....

Yes it's Congo Chant on understanding.

.....saying patton's solo took a long time going nowhere, basically.

I can see why some people get that impression from Patton - it's just the flip side of what others like about him. What some see as aimless meandering, others see as an intriguing, low key style that draws you in, bend after bend, .... until you you sit back and then realise that some great picture's just been painted. (oh shit - I sound like Thom Jurek now!)

Edited May 5, 2007 by K1969

[paul secor]

That Certain Feeling has....

Clifford Jarvis-drums

Jimmy Ponder-guitar

Junior Cook-tenor sax

AMAZING session!

That Certain Feeling is my favorite John Patton recording. Love the way that Clifford Jarvis breaks up the time and still keeps the basic rhythmic feel going (check out "early A.M.") - not unusual for 60's jazz in general, but not the usual thing for BN organ dates - Larry Young excepted. Jarvis is an underrated musician. Not sure if it's because of Jarvis' playing, but both Patton and Jimmy Ponder stretch out a bit more than usual, at least to my ears.

As you say, it is an "AMAZING session!"

[AndrewHill]

Have to disagree with AMG on their reviews of BJP's Understanding and Boogaloo too. The sidemen he had on those dates were really outward-leaning players that added to the music, not detracted from it. When I bought Understanding, I was blown away. This record is perhaps my favorite organ record of all time, and that's up against the output of my other two favorite organists, Larry Young and Lonnie Smith. At times, I wonder why Understanding was released as a Rare Groove. This album goes beyond groove, its a new sound altogether! A great record by a great master.

[Guest donald petersen]

wasn't there a trio with patton/jarvis/pharoah sanders that was active 1968ish?

lets find some tapes!

[AndrewHill]

I heard somewhere, but I don't know where, that Pharoah played with Patton. Can anyone confirm that?

[Soul Stream]

[

.....saying patton's solo took a long time going nowhere, basically.

I can see why some people get that impression from Patton - it's just the flip side of what others like about him. What some see as aimless meandering, others see as an intriguing, low key style that draws you in, bend after bend, .... until you you sit back and then realise that some great picture's just been painted. (oh shit - I sound like Thom Jurek now!)

One of the things I like most about Patton is that he never pandered. The conventional arc of a Jimmy Smith-derived organ solo was what most organists delivered, live and on record. And although Big John certainly told a well-conceived story with his soloing, it was always a search. His style in this sense never changed. Even when I saw him play in his last couple of years, it was always a musical search.

One time John and I were discussing Giant Steps and in general the relationship between music and mathematics. His reply was something to the effect of...

"Well, it's like mathematics...but you've got to get your soul in there too."

I think that sums up John's philosphy.