who knows about Tranes OM session?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

is it just myth or is it true that trane and the whole band recorded this number whilst on lsd. it even said it on wikipedia. that is interesting he recorded that in seattle and also that live album. but ive never heard OM and dont own the live one but ive heard that

[Guy Berger]

is it just myth or is it true that trane and the whole band recorded this number whilst on lsd. it even said it on wikipedia. that is interesting he recorded that in seattle and also that live album. but ive never heard OM and dont own the live one but ive heard that

Yes, that is the conventional wisdom on OM. I've never heard that they were tripping for the Live in Seattle concert.

Guy

[mikeweil]

I remember a passage in one of the books on Trane that it was maybe not on the session, but on one of the days before, that they had their pills. I could be wrong, don't have the time to check.

[Simon Weil]

Well Om is not a total success, so that tends to give credence to this. But there ain't no evidence. Ergo it can hardly be "conventional wisdom". Useful means of categorising said session mentally, maybe: "they were high on drugs and look what happened...". I tend to feel that actually gets in the way of listening to the music. I mean a (partically) failed Coltrane session is interesting in itself.

Is it a myth? Well, people do feel Coltrane was a kind of God. That's a mythic view of the man. The idea that the only way he could have failed is if he was taking something would be part of the myth.

I don't know if it's true or not.

Simon Weil

P.S. [i think "Loud whisper in the Jazz community" is how I would describe this. Sense: Lots of people who think they know something.]

Edited April 28, 2007 by Simon Weil

[JSngry]

Word from those who do know something is that Trane was using acid at least semi-regularly from late-65 on as part of his quest to find god.

You gotta remember the timeframe. Lsd still had more of a "mystical" reputaton then than it did a more materialistically "trippy" one.

[mikeweil]

Maybe too much is made of the whole thing. The Trane Group was recorded live in Seattle the preceding day, September 30, 1965. "OM" was made October 1. Parts of "Kulu Se Mama" were recorded later that month. Earlier in September they had attempted "Meditations" for the first time. If "OM" weren't opened with these admittedly weird chantings, would be think about it differently?

As JSngry has said, the spiritual quest may be the main factor. But I often have the feeling that's a part of Trane many fans do not want to deal with. But it was his main driving force, IMHO, after his cold turkey following his first feeling of the presence of God.

Edited April 28, 2007 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

There's a change in Trane's tone once the acid experimentation (allegedly) began, and it's one that is apparent to anybody who's ever "been there, done that", I think.

And none of this should be used to fuel a Crouchian "dismissal" of late Trane. It is what it is, it's all part of the puzzle, and it all comes together once and for all on Interstellar Space, so any bumps in the road along the way are just that, and nothing more.

[erhodes]

Maybe too much is made of the whole thing.

That's my take.

My understanding is that Trane was using acid when he recorded "Om". I see no evidence that this had a particular impact on the recording. Unlike Simon, I think it is a largely successful outing, though it has more of the feel of a "jam" as opposed to a carefully constructed session like "Meditations". I think Trane's tenor solo is better than the one on "Meditations" and I think Pharoah's main tenor solo is one of the best he ever recorded and one of the outstanding tenor sax recordings in this idiom. There is some disconnect between the rhythm section and the horns, to be sure, but that is characteristic of most of the late '65 dates where Elvin and McCoy are playing behind Pharoah and with Rasheid, though I would freely admit that "Evolution" is quite the exception.

Over the years, the acid thing has been dredged up to "explain" or critique Trane's movement from the music of the quartet to that of "Om" and "Meditations", the implication being that if Trane wasn't literally tripping he never would have begun to play that way. If you look at the whole thing and listen to all of the recordings, this just doesn't hold water.

Clem's right. Everyone was getting high back then. There's a lot that could be said but it certainly doesn't explain what happened on any particular recording session, Trane's or anyone else's.

BTW, the "wierd" chants are a piece of Hindu scripture, the Bhagava Gita (sp?).

Something else to throw out there...

The opening ensemble after the recitation, which Pharoah anchors for a bit by alternating high notes with low blasts, is likely something that Pharoah brought in from Sun Ra's band. Compare it to the entrance of the saxes about mid way through "Magic City". Gilmore does almost exactly the same thing, though he stretches it out for considerably longer.

[Simon Weil]

Maybe too much is made of the whole thing.

That's my take.

My understanding is that Trane was using acid when he recorded "Om". I see no evidence that this had a particular impact on the recording. Unlike Simon, I think it is a largely successful outing, though it has more of the feel of a "jam" as opposed to a carefully constructed session like "Meditations". I think Trane's tenor solo is better than the one on "Meditations" and I think Pharoah's main tenor solo is one of the best he ever recorded and one of the outstanding tenor sax recordings in this idiom. There is some disconnect between the rhythm section and the horns, to be sure, but that is characteristic of most of the late '65 dates where Elvin and McCoy are playing behind Pharoah and with Rasheid, though I would freely admit that "Evolution" is quite the exception.

Well, in a sense it's a string of solos bookended by the OM chant (but with a bit of Om chanting in the middle of Pharoah's solo). But there's also a distinct change in vibe (to my ears) in the middle of it. You go from the major soloists (Coltrane, Sanders, Tyner) playing with a degree of fire to a more reflective/quiescent thing with (I think) flute and then bass clarinet. There's a kind of twilight kind feel to it.

I don't think the music is bad, although I don't much like the chants. The Coltrane solo I find intense but somehow rather obscure. The Sanders I agree is very good. Tyner's is kind of serviceable. What I don't really understand is why the minor soloists are there - what Coltrane was trying to do. I mean that's much of the second half of the recording in this unified (to my ears) rather reflective vibe which contrasted with the first half fire - but why? I don't think the second half's bad music - it works in a certain way - but...

the acid thing has been dredged up to "explain" or critique Trane's movement from the music of the quartet to that of "Om" and "Meditations", the implication being that if Trane wasn't literally tripping he never would have begun to play that way. If you look at the whole thing and listen to all of the recordings, this just doesn't hold water.

Clem's right. Everyone was getting high back then. There's a lot that could be said but it certainly doesn't explain what happened on any particular recording session, Trane's or anyone else's.

Of course I have my theory as to why he began to play like this...And it ain't drugs.

BTW, the "wierd" chants are a piece of Hindu scripture, the Bhagava Gita (sp?).

The 9th Book of the Bhaghavad Gita in the Prabhavananda/Isherwood translation (straight out of it). The way Coltrane uses it is akin to a theme. Beginning and ending with it and with the one word chant "Om" in the middle - and then he talks about Om in the sleevenotes as well.

So for him it's something important.

Simon Weil

[David Ayers]

Success or not, I'd like to see a good remastering of this on general release (i.e. outside Japan). Maybe there is more material that could be added.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

A little known fact is that the original British release of "Kulu se mama" had "Om", which hadn't then been released here, inside the jacket. Now THAT made for some interesting listens, I can tell you!

MG

[mikeweil]

A little known fact is that the original British release of "Kulu se mama" had "Om", which hadn't then been released here, inside the jacket. Now THAT made for some interesting listens, I can tell you!

MG

[brownie]

A little known fact is that the original British release of "Kulu se mama" had "Om", which hadn't then been released here, inside the jacket. Now THAT made for some interesting listens, I can tell you!

MG

I happened to be in London when it came out. I still have that HMV Kulu Se Mama.

Cover, labels even masters stamps on both sides of the vinyl indicate 'Kulu Se Mama'.

The music inside is OMy god!

[mikeweil]

You should let David Wild know this, in case he doesn't!

http://home.att.net/~dawild/

[mikeweil]

Maybe too much is made of the whole thing.

That's my take.

My understanding is that Trane was using acid when he recorded "Om". I see no evidence that this had a particular impact on the recording. Unlike Simon, I think it is a largely successful outing, though it has more of the feel of a "jam" as opposed to a carefully constructed session like "Meditations". I think Trane's tenor solo is better than the one on "Meditations" and I think Pharoah's main tenor solo is one of the best he ever recorded and one of the outstanding tenor sax recordings in this idiom. There is some disconnect between the rhythm section and the horns, to be sure, but that is characteristic of most of the late '65 dates where Elvin and McCoy are playing behind Pharoah and with Rasheid, though I would freely admit that "Evolution" is quite the exception.

Well, in a sense it's a string of solos bookended by the OM chant (but with a bit of Om chanting in the middle of Pharoah's solo). But there's also a distinct change in vibe (to my ears) in the middle of it. You go from the major soloists (Coltrane, Sanders, Tyner) playing with a degree of fire to a more reflective/quiescent thing with (I think) flute and then bass clarinet. There's a kind of twilight kind feel to it.

I don't think the music is bad, although I don't much like the chants. The Coltrane solo I find intense but somehow rather obscure. The Sanders I agree is very good. Tyner's is kind of serviceable. What I don't really understand is why the minor soloists are there - what Coltrane was trying to do. I mean that's much of the second half of the recording in this unified (to my ears) rather reflective vibe which contrasted with the first half fire - but why? I don't think the second half's bad music - it works in a certain way - but...

the acid thing has been dredged up to "explain" or critique Trane's movement from the music of the quartet to that of "Om" and "Meditations", the implication being that if Trane wasn't literally tripping he never would have begun to play that way. If you look at the whole thing and listen to all of the recordings, this just doesn't hold water.

Clem's right. Everyone was getting high back then. There's a lot that could be said but it certainly doesn't explain what happened on any particular recording session, Trane's or anyone else's.

Of course I have my theory as to why he began to play like this...And it ain't drugs.

BTW, the "wierd" chants are a piece of Hindu scripture, the Bhagava Gita (sp?).

The 9th Book of the Bhaghavad Gita in the Prabhavananda/Isherwood translation (straight out of it). The way Coltrane uses it is akin to a theme. Beginning and ending with it and with the one word chant "Om" in the middle - and then he talks about Om in the sleevenotes as well.

So for him it's something important.

Simon Weil

Couldn't agree more - it was important to him, and that's what counts.

[brownie]

You should let David Wild know this, in case he doesn't!

http://home.att.net/~dawild/

It's rather common knowledge to Coltrane specialists. The mixup was reported in the british jazz magazines at the time!

No idea how many copies went with the wrong music!

[AndrewHill]

I'm a fan of this session. A few years ago, I just happened to luck out and found a copy in the $5 cd bin. I even dig the chanting. Its been mentioned that Elvin and McCoy were sort of disconnected with Trane and Sanders and company, and I can hear that too. I just don't think they were really ready to make the leap at this juncture. Regardless, I'm glad I have it, and I reach for this one more than the other, more popular dates.

[Simon Weil]

Maybe too much is made of the whole thing.

That's my take.

My understanding is that Trane was using acid when he recorded "Om". I see no evidence that this had a particular impact on the recording. Unlike Simon, I think it is a largely successful outing, though it has more of the feel of a "jam" as opposed to a carefully constructed session like "Meditations". I think Trane's tenor solo is better than the one on "Meditations" and I think Pharoah's main tenor solo is one of the best he ever recorded and one of the outstanding tenor sax recordings in this idiom. There is some disconnect between the rhythm section and the horns, to be sure, but that is characteristic of most of the late '65 dates where Elvin and McCoy are playing behind Pharoah and with Rasheid, though I would freely admit that "Evolution" is quite the exception.

Well, in a sense it's a string of solos bookended by the OM chant (but with a bit of Om chanting in the middle of Pharoah's solo). But there's also a distinct change in vibe (to my ears) in the middle of it. You go from the major soloists (Coltrane, Sanders, Tyner) playing with a degree of fire to a more reflective/quiescent thing with (I think) flute and then bass clarinet. There's a kind of twilight kind feel to it.

I don't think the music is bad, although I don't much like the chants. The Coltrane solo I find intense but somehow rather obscure. The Sanders I agree is very good. Tyner's is kind of serviceable. What I don't really understand is why the minor soloists are there - what Coltrane was trying to do. I mean that's much of the second half of the recording in this unified (to my ears) rather reflective vibe which contrasted with the first half fire - but why? I don't think the second half's bad music - it works in a certain way - but...

the acid thing has been dredged up to "explain" or critique Trane's movement from the music of the quartet to that of "Om" and "Meditations", the implication being that if Trane wasn't literally tripping he never would have begun to play that way. If you look at the whole thing and listen to all of the recordings, this just doesn't hold water.

Clem's right. Everyone was getting high back then. There's a lot that could be said but it certainly doesn't explain what happened on any particular recording session, Trane's or anyone else's.

Of course I have my theory as to why he began to play like this...And it ain't drugs.

BTW, the "wierd" chants are a piece of Hindu scripture, the Bhagava Gita (sp?).

The 9th Book of the Bhaghavad Gita in the Prabhavananda/Isherwood translation (straight out of it). The way Coltrane uses it is akin to a theme. Beginning and ending with it and with the one word chant "Om" in the middle - and then he talks about Om in the sleevenotes as well.

So for him it's something important.

Simon Weil

Couldn't agree more - it was important to him, and that's what counts.

It does sort of make sense to me if I take his use of "Om" seriously - that is to say if I take the track to be, in some sense "about Om". Then I can allow myself to hear the track programatically and the obscurity (as I hear it) of Trane's solo becomes a man trying to express the inexpressible (Om = the Voice of God at the Dawn of Time). Likewise, when I hear the flute come in, I don't have to keep disappearing thoughts of the flute being associated with the breath of God in Islamic music. Instead I can go with that and can hear those passages as having something to do with God's breath over the waters bringing life.

I'm not saying that this is absolutely right. Just that listening like that - in a programmatic way that seems implied by Coltrane - makes the music cohere to me. It's a way of "making sense" out of the music in contrast to the "he's on drugs" thing which tends to "it's nonsense".

And I wrote an article based on this view.

Simon Weil

[JohnS]

A little known fact is that the original British release of "Kulu se mama" had "Om", which hadn't then been released here, inside the jacket. Now THAT made for some interesting listens, I can tell you!

MG

I happened to be in London when it came out. I still have that HMV Kulu Se Mama.

Cover, labels even masters stamps on both sides of the vinyl indicate 'Kulu Se Mama'.

The music inside is OMy god!

I had one of those too. Pretty strange! Got mine on the day of release. They were withdrawn after a day or so.

[mikeweil]

You should let David Wild know this, in case he doesn't!

http://home.att.net/~dawild/

It's rather common knowledge to Coltrane specialists. The mixup was reported in the british jazz magazines at the time!

No idea how many copies went with the wrong music!

Then I wonder why he doesn't mention it ...

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

ive figured out why it hasnt been reissued--- that white cd set MAJOR WORKS OF JOHN COLTRANE_- never looked twice @ it-- thought it was a stupid comp....well thats were those records are--- assessnsion: is it just ornette coleman redux + trane trying to be john gilmore, or is there more to it than that? also that OM and kuli su mama stuff w/ all that chanting, it makes that a love supreme chant seem normal--