BFT 47 discussion

[mikeweil]

you forgot to mention that it has the best vibes solo ever

Now I could start an argument with you about that .....

Edited May 11, 2007 by mikeweil

[couw]

thanks Mike

So here's my comments on couw's mostly LP-compiled

it's about 50/50 really.

2. The flutist is nice, but I can't name him, sounds kind of European to me. That electric bassist rushes the time a little too much for my taste and relies too much on stock phrases - that 2 over the three beats of this jazz waltzy rhythm isn't his forte. Would have liked to hear more from the drummer - why did he hold back so much?

bassist is probably the biggest "name" here. The drummer ended up leading a big band.

3. Crazy and wild. Jiri Stivin? Some loose tuned African drums played with sticks, and some authentic double flute. Now that singalong trombonist throws me off - not Albert, for sure. I like it very much that they don't take themselves too seriously. Very nice!

wild enough indeed, but not Jiři. I think you are spot on when you say these guys are not taking themselves too seriously. Although they are definitely dedicated players, they strike me as a bunch that knows how to have fun.

4. The standard "Take Five" rhythm pattern. Alto and baritone and trumpet - nice arrangement, and good soloists, although the trumpeter sounds a bit shaky. But that alto is very nice. Good drummer! Polish guys?

not Polish. Interesting that you pick out the drummer. He has played in all kinds of settings, from Dixie to light pop to free jazz both in small and large groups. The trumpet player got much better later in his carreer.

5. That almost sounds like one of those waltzes off a Max Roach record - great! My favourite so far. Excellent hard bop phrasing, with very nice off-center rhythmic ideas. Me want this! Trumpeter knows how to pace himself. A 1960's recording, I'd say. I should know that flutist .... they all take their time, that's what I miss with most guys that are running stock phrases all over - five stars for this! Hmmm - the ending sounds like this were an outtake?

See above for an explanation on the strange ending; I wish it had been without the fade. You would know the flutist as he appears elsewhere on this collection, albeit playing another instrument.

6. Nice 10/8 rhythm with marimba. On vibes he loves Bobby Hutcherson. Too bad they didn't know how to treat that rhythm more freely without losing the groove. Now what has that second fiddled part to do with it? This doesn't fulfill it's promise and remains some kind of exotic collage. What a pity.

hey, I need you to identify that whack instrument played during the second part. This track is part of an amazing album and doesn't shine as much when taken out of that context.

7. Tenor plays a little flat, but has a very nice groove and rhythmic bite. He's more of an individual than the trumpeter. Guitarist is nice again. Bassist is kind of undefined, rhythmically. This is a band of mixed level of advancement .....

the trumpeter may not (yet) have his own tone, but his phrasing with melodic lines stretching across the bars is something else. The level here isn't top-notch as you rightfully indicate, but they play their hearts out with what they have.

8. This is concise and delivers a message - not a top notch performance, but they all get it done. Good!

my sentiments exactly. Again lots of conviction and belief, which makes up for a lot.

9. A little hectic, but otherwise very good. More a showpiece for the pianist - I don't quite get what he wants to say.

he wants to say that his feghing hands are on fire!

10. Nice lazy phrasing of the altoist - he sounds like he does that very consciously. He obviously likes his Desmond, but doesn't simply imitate. Who is this? Good bassist and drummer, too - this is high on the favourite list.

drummer has already appeared (and will appear on yet another track); bassist will be heard again on this BFT.

Edited May 11, 2007 by couw

[couw]

11. Hah! Baritone and all kinds of low brass - they could a little more on point rhythmically but they got the feeling and the arrangement is very nice! More please! Yeah - I like this.

the title of the tune couldn't be better chosen.

12. The second wildest track so far - nice engaging baritone with semi big band. This definitely is from the times when Yurpeeans didn't yet know proper bongo technique, but they all hit the groove nicely. Excellent arrangement. Who is this?

this is one of three big national "Radio Orchestras/Big Bands" of the time. The leader normally performs on piano, but switched to the drum set for this one. He also did the arrangement. Very able players in that band, which played a variety of styles in a several settings from trio to sextet to large ensemble.

13. Nice horns, although a bit sleepy, electric bass is out of place here! The buesy phrases he plays to close the piece simply don't sound bluesy on electric!

I don't know how they recorded it, but this is not an electric bass! Well, I do know how they recorded it: crappy and then the pressing wasn't too spiffy either. Surely some bite got lost there.

14. couw likes his piano trios jumpy? This is more consistent than # 9. Three stars.

This is the trio setting of the big band on 12 actually.

15. Another very interesting big band track. Excellent low brass players. Wild! Yeah! Now this is the wildest - makes # 3 sound like child's play. Six stars!

hah! glad you like this one. I really like how new motifs are brooding at the bottom of the kettle to rise to the surface gradually until the whole band hits their groove.

16. Very nice track full of good ideas - that guitar used as a noisy percussion is a welcome relief from the instrument's standard role. Saxists are nice. Would have liked to hear a Fender Rhodes solo (that player has agood groove!) than one of the conga player - he relies on patters too much, doesn't know how to play variantions of his bassic pattern, and his solo phrases are all in 4/4 rather than the 7/4 rhythm of the piece and do not fit. Oh well ....

17. Very good clarinettist - Theo Hörgensmann? Anyway, an excellent player. Can't recall Jörgensmann played with such a post-Tyneresque pianist ...

nope, not Theo, think earlier.

18. Tenor & Trombone - I'm again and again surprised how much music there is that I've never heard of .... nice energetic but still relaxed groove, nice arrangement. Lots of different grooves - they know what they're doing. No idea again who they are. I'm not good at dropping names this time.

Rocky spilled the beans on this one.

19. Another piano trio for closers - a mixture of Ray Bryant and a classicist attitude. I would like to hear more of this pianist at medium tempos to find out what he really can do ....

I have some more tracks of the man playing piano. He performs elsewhere on this collection on a very different instrument.

It seems you liked most of this stuff, so I am happy.

[mikeweil]

17. Very good clarinettist - Theo Hörgensmann? Anyway, an excellent player. Can't recall Jörgensmann played with such a post-Tyneresque pianist ...

nope, not Theo, think earlier.

Is this the Kühn brothers? I remember Joachim used to be kind of Tyneresque early in his career ... Otherwise, clarinet is not my favorite blowstick, so I don't know too many practitioners.

Edited May 11, 2007 by mikeweil

[tooter]

Polish Take Five?

not quite right on the country or the tune. But almost, so here's a bonus (click).

Yes, love it! What would Desmond have said. I know 6 not Take Five of course but a European (?) bandwagon attempt?

[couw]

18. Tenor & Trombone - I'm again and again surprised how much music there is that I've never heard of .... nice energetic but still relaxed groove, nice arrangement. Lots of different grooves - they know what they're doing. No idea again who they are. I'm not good at dropping names this time.

Rocky spilled the beans on this one.

...and as he did, it is no use to keep it a secret so I might as well point you to this site that recently put up a vinyl rip of this great album. Go get it, who knows how long it will remain available.

[tooter]

Could it be Ianscy Korossy?

Cigar for tooter!

As a rabid anti-smoker (no objection so long as I can be somewhere else) I would have preferred a different award. But I shall hard copy and frame the comment. Could you do a Couw-type graphic to go with it???? I know, I know - no time!

[couw]

Polish Take Five?

not quite right on the country or the tune. But almost, so here's a bonus (click).

Yes, love it! What would Desmond have said. I know 6 not Take Five of course but a European (?) bandwagon attempt?

the Take 5 bonus was recorded in 1963, one year before the same band recorded track 4. They developed much for the better during that year.

[couw]

Could it be Ianscy Korossy?

Cigar for tooter!

As a rabid anti-smoker (no objection so long as I can be somewhere else) I would have preferred a different award. But I shall hard copy and frame the comment. Could you do a Couw-type graphic to go with it???? I know, I know - no time!

here you are then

[couw]

17. Very good clarinettist - Theo Hörgensmann? Anyway, an excellent player. Can't recall Jörgensmann played with such a post-Tyneresque pianist ...

nope, not Theo, think earlier.

Is this the Kühn brothers? I remember Joachim used to be kind of Tyneresque early in his career ... Otherwise, clarinet is not my favorite blowstick, so I don't know too many practitioners.

take it easy guys, I'm running out of cigars!

[mikeweil]

Oh, I'll make an exception and take a beer ....

[tooter]

Up to 10 now - half way. This one is in 3/4 too - alto sounds a bit Desmond-ish perhaps. Don't recognize anybody, or the tune. Pleasant performance.

Straight on to 11. This is a bit more lively - once again a great sound, the baritone. French horn? Tuba? Tenor sax. Tune sounds a little familiar. 4/4 this time. No ideas.

And 12 - baritone again. Just for a couple of seconds I thought this might be Ronnie Ross but that was wishful thinking. Doesn't quite have RR's fluency although the sound is similar. Could it be the Clarke-Boland Big Band? If so, the baritone is likely to be Sahib Shihab which I don't think it is. Don't know the track anyway, or the tune.

If this does turn out to be the CBBB with Ronnie Ross on baritone I would be over the moon. Although I've stopped doing much on the RR website, I still dabble occasionally and a question was raised about whether or not Ronnie Ross ever played with the CBBB. There do not seem to be any recordings as evidence and some examples which purported to be, on eBay, turned out to be confusion between the two Ronnies, Ross and Scott. So the suspicion was that Ronnie Ross had not participated despite the various mentions on the web that he did.

However, one of my contacts has been able to confirm that he did as he remembers him mentioning it together with escapades with Derek Humble. My contact also told me that even Ronnie's own father got him confused with Scott on occasion, asking him whether he still had the club in London (in his old age).

So if anyone does have any examples of recordings of Ross in the CBBB, do let me know.

[couw]

So if anyone does have any examples of recordings of Ross in the CBBB, do let me know.

Track 12 is not such an example.

[tooter]

So if anyone does have any examples of recordings of Ross in the CBBB, do let me know.

Track 12 is not such an example.

Didn't think so but live in hope. And thanks for the pic - printed but not yet framed.

[king ubu]

so then, here's my little write-up, I'm pretty sure I'm going to make a fool of myself - as usual, I did the listening away from my CDs and just took a couple of notes while listening to each track:

#1 - Great one! I assume that Jerzy chap on doorbells? The guitar gives this sort of a Getz-Jazz-Samba mood, the tenor sax fits in perfectly well. Groovy bit of fun, great opener, and I assume this one sets the mood?!

#2 - Flute'n'bass, very nice. Drums are nice, too - at some moments it almost sounds like there are two drummers present, but I assume that's because of the stereo-spread? Bass has a folksy style, copped from Charlie Haden (but without Haden's signature sound)? This one's new for me and I'd certainly enjoy more of it!

#3 - More flute, this time with some ethnical drums... is this some cheap tin flute or a regular one? Weird one... enters vocalized trombone - Albert M.? Piano as well... hm, tough one to pin down but I like it more and more as it progresses... piano sounds like Dollar Brand (those last couple of chords towards the end)

#4 - A variant of "Take Five" - is this Desmond's "Take Ten"? Long time since I played such stuff so I can't tell. Pretty nice alto, good brassy trumpet. Some eastern european guys? Good scoring as well, with the baritone sax laying the foundation and pretty nice drumming.

#5 - A nice hardbop performance of the softer kind (KD's Jazz Prophets come to mind, their Argo album mainly), certainly some Euro dudes again. I enjoy trumpet played in that low register a lot - nicely built solo as well. More flute and nice tenor, but I love the trumpet! Sounds like the pianist led this date to me, but don't ask me why... very nice piano solo to top things off - my favourite so far for content (#1 being the favourite for style...)

#6 - A bit of a rough cut here (first one, others were good enough for me to really notice them much), on to more Milian twist stuff, pretty nice with that bass ostinato. Another one in five (last one was in three - pretty cool to hear such easy-going and natural sounding stuff in these signatures). Hah, there it gets weird again... not Milian then, I suppose.

#7 - More of that purrty hardbop stuffe, again a bunch of Euro dudes that no one will be able to pin down? Sounds just as good, for sure! Tenor is great, trumpet in a lyrical style with a bunch of nice ideas - a bit like Donald Byrd around '56/'57? Using guitar instead of piano makes the whole band sound much lighter, to which the drummer adds a lot, too. Bass solo is pretty nice. May there be an expat or two in the rhythm section? All of this sounds somehow familiar...

#8 - Very nice moody piece, great tenor solo! Another favourite! Trumpet is great during the ensembles!

#9 - Ha! Kind of a madman here, huh? ... the spectacled weirdo some bad websites mix up with Jimmy Yancey, it seems, but it's been over a year that I played any of his music... love this one! The mix of Tristano with Peterson (or Wilson via Peterson?) is terrific - there's that rather cold-ish scholarly stuff in there, yet it grooves, breathes and blasts out with plenty of fun! If it's really Yancsi, it once more makes me wonder how softly that swiss power drummer can play if he chooses to.

#10 - Yay! More fun stuff that sounds very familiar... from beyond your eastern border, Sir? Again there's that Brubeck thing in here with the three against two that gives this sort of a forward-moving stuttering feel. More great drumming here! And I enjoy it when the bass goes on playing during a drum-solo (Roach did that often). Lovely melody!

#11 - "Birth of the Cool" this time... great scoring with that tuba/baritone sax lead-off! It's good to hear such short and concise solos - too often long ones don't add up to much more... who's the tuba chap? Tenor is nice as well!

#12 - Slick programming here! The baritone sax picks up where that last one ended, the congas add a nice touch here.

#13 - And one more that segues easily into the next one - Mulliganesque big band arrangement? Very nice opening dialogue, and then them vibes again... nice trumpet solo, again not one of those high and hardblowing ones, I like this lyrical trumpet playing staying in mid-range a lot.

#14 - Extremely catchy and upbeat - nice one!

#15 - ... but now time for some weirdness again! Typical GDR sunday afternoon barbecue music, I guess?

Very nice one! Great soprano solo emerging out of the collective (great range, from tuba to piccolo!)

#16 - That weird sound far right is a blatant rip-off of couw's favourite fingernails-on-chalkboard chap... won't say no more about this one, I almost expected a cut from this group to end up on a bovine BFT and here 'tis!

#17 - Another great one! No clue who this could be, but he's got a great sound on clarinet, very much in command, very cultivated. Piano is a bit too easy-going, sounds rather like on autopilot... bass is great, reminds me a bit of Richard Davis in spots (those runs going high up, interfering with the melody, also the flexible-sounding pace). Piano gets a bit flowery after those runs, then into free-ish territory... I start liking it more and more as the solo goes on. Drummer starts playing some more, too - good! But the main thing here is the clarinet! Monkish theme.

#18 - Modal territory... a Hancock/Tyner/Shorter mid 60s Blue Note mood - but the frontline of tenor sax & trombone already is a departure from your usual fare... the tune sounds familiar, is this a retro bit by a recent band? Sound tells me it's rather not... anyway, very nice trombone solo! Nice little tenor bit... and great performance by the drummer! Another good one! And as if to close things down, there's a bit of flute again in the end...

#19 - More stoopid pianistics... the Romanian again? A cute little closer!

Definitely a great compilation, John - lots of fun stuff in there! Thanks a lot!

[king ubu]

arright then, I ought to finally play the Ptaszyn (although I have an older version, I'm afraid, on Power Bros.), and I definitely ought to play the Schönfeld/Katzenbeier again - I have bought it on vinyl after having had it on couw's CDR for a while, one more reason to move the record player to my place, finally!

So congas are bongos, too stoopid mistake, but that happens when doing the typing (and listening) while at work... I assume that's the Clarke/Boland crew on #12 then and Boland/Woode/Klook on #14? Boland is a much better pianist than his band duties make him seem, I think - that MPS album of his, "Out of the Background," is pretty cool (I only found it in blogosphere, though...)

can I get some non-smoking cigars for Ianci as well? And what for Wanja and his hipsters?

[couw]

#2 - Flute'n'bass, very nice. Drums are nice, too - at some moments it almost sounds like there are two drummers present, but I assume that's because of the stereo-spread? Bass has a folksy style, copped from Charlie Haden (but without Haden's signature sound)? This one's new for me and I'd certainly enjoy more of it!

I doubt the bassist looked much at what Haden was doing to arrive at his style. This is his bag 100%. Only one drummer, lovingly restrained at that.

#3 - More flute, this time with some ethnical drums... is this some cheap tin flute or a regular one? Weird one... enters vocalized trombone - Albert M.? Piano as well... hm, tough one to pin down but I like it more and more as it progresses... piano sounds like Dollar Brand (those last couple of chords towards the end)

Not Alber M. The fact that the piano enters at all so late in the game is pretty cool I think. You should know these guys, Ubu!

#4 - A variant of "Take Five" - is this Desmond's "Take Ten"? ... Some eastern european guys?

no Desmond, yes eastern euro dudes.

#5 - Sounds like the pianist led this date to me, but don't ask me why... very nice piano solo to top things off

a pianist indeed led this date, just that he didn't play piano. The pianist did pen the tune though.

#6 - ... on to more Milian twist stuff... ... not Milian then, I suppose.

stick to your first hunch and I'll hand you a cigar.

#7 - May there be an expat or two in the rhythm section? All of this sounds somehow familiar...

no expats. I think you should have this track somewhere.

#8 - Very nice moody piece, great tenor solo! Another favourite! Trumpet is great during the ensembles!

yesyesyes

#9 - ...If it's really Yancsi, it once more makes me wonder how softly that swiss power drummer can play if he chooses to.

the cigar for Iancsi already went to tooter! This is not from the MPS album with the Swiss power drummer.

#10 - Yay! ... from beyond your eastern border, Sir?

yup.

#11 - It's good to hear such short and concise solos - too often long ones don't add up to much more... who's the tuba chap? Tenor is nice as well!

for once the tuba solo is the longest of the bunch!

Edited May 15, 2007 by couw

[king ubu]

Thanks for your reply John - I will play the disc again as soon as I can! Will try and pin down some more things, but it won't be easy.

By the way, I don't that Ptaszyn track (#1) on anything but your compilation - the disc i have is the Quartet one (on Power Bros).

[king ubu]

So the imported GDR soprano comes from Holland, then, and is bearer of a kaiserliche first name?

And the real thing is that them Jazz Carriers, then? They're great, I got to play that album again soon, another one that hasn't been played for more than a year!

[tooter]

Now at 13 - had a break yesterday. Vibes leader, as he goes first? A blues, in 4/4 time. Nothing untoward here, a very listenable performance but I've no idea who or what, not the tune or anything else.

[tooter]

14. That's a solid sound from the bass. I had a fleeting idea I might be able to recognize the tune but it soon disappeared. Again a nice enough rendition of whatever it is but I'm bereft of anything else to say about it.

[couw]

it seems I need to break this in two to make the quotes work:

#12 - ...

#13 - And one more that segues easily into the next one - Mulliganesque big band arrangement? Very nice opening dialogue, and then them vibes again... nice trumpet solo, again not one of those high and hardblowing ones, I like this lyrical trumpet playing staying in mid-range a lot.

not Mulligan. I love how the vibes stumble in there out of the blue and later on there's a guitar there too all of a sudden.

#14 - ...

#15 - ... Typical GDR sunday afternoon barbecue music, I guess?

Very nice one! Great soprano solo emerging out of the collective (great range, from tuba to piccolo!)

Indeed a typical GDR Sunday afternoon barbecue affair. Interestingly, the soprano was invited from abroad.

#16 - That weird sound far right is a blatant rip-off of couw's favourite fingernails-on-chalkboard chap... won't say no more about this one, I almost expected a cut from this group to end up on a bovine BFT and here 'tis!

actually, this is not Wanja and his gang! This is the real thing from way back when.

#17 - Another great one! No clue who this could be, but he's got a great sound on clarinet, very much in command, very cultivated. Piano is a bit too easy-going, sounds rather like on autopilot... bass is great, reminds me a bit of Richard Davis in spots (those runs going high up, interfering with the melody, also the flexible-sounding pace). Piano gets a bit flowery after those runs, then into free-ish territory... I start liking it more and more as the solo goes on. Drummer starts playing some more, too - good! But the main thing here is the clarinet! Monkish theme.

cultivated is the right word for the clarinet, the guy played with Benny Goodman, paying plenty solo duties. Mike scooped up the cigar for identifying the players, but other details are still lacking.

#18 - ...

#19 - More stoopid pianistics... the Romanian again? A cute little closer!

not the Romanian. It's the pianist who didn't play piano on track #5!

[couw]

Thanks for your reply John - I will play the disc again as soon as I can! Will try and pin down some more things, but it won't be easy.

By the way, I don't that Ptaszyn track (#1) on anything but your compilation - the disc i have is the Quartet one (on Power Bros).

indeed. The track is available on CD together with the Getz 1960 Warsaw performance

[couw]

So the imported GDR soprano comes from Holland, then, and is bearer of a kaiserliche first name?

And the real thing is that them Jazz Carriers, then? They're great, I got to play that album again soon, another one that hasn't been played for more than a year!

two cigars!

[tooter]

15 - not into this kind of thing. I thought for a while there would be no improvisation in it but then we got to the crazy chicken sounds and then the soprano with the monotonous drum off beat. I suppose there must be some intrinsic artistic value in this somewhere but I'm afraid it escapes me. Needless to say, clueless.