Guy Berger Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 guy-yeah santana is not too hip right now but i thought this album would maybe impress some friends that santana had done some respectable stuff. didn't work. I remember loaning Caravanserai to a fellow music nut (more of a 20th century classical guy w/some dabbling in jazz) and he loved it. i don't like borboleta. I wouldn't say I dislike it, but there's a lot of crap on there. (Lon/Jazzbo will disagree with us.) However, I disagree with you about the long tune near the end. i like welcome better. Yup. In regards to Love Devotion & Surrender (the album, not the tune) mentioned upthread -- yes, something of a disappointment. I do like "Let Us Go Into the House of the Lord", they work up a nice groove and some of the guitar playing is ecstatic in a good way. WTF is up with the mixing of Larry Young on that album? He's barely audible. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 FWIW (and this may destroy my remaining credibility beyond repair), I thought "Smooth" was a decent bit of cookie-cutter Santana. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 FWIW (and this may destroy my remaining credibility beyond repair), I thought "Smooth" was a decent bit of cookie-cutter Santana. Guy That entire album is better than more than half of Santana's recorded output, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Second only to Caravanserai is Soul Sacrifice, for me. The "Santana Jam" is my favorite Santana song. I could listen to that piano theme for hours! Plus his cover of "Fried Neckbones & Some Home Fries" is smokin'. I want to hear some of the other jazz rock albums he did in the wake of Caravanserai, I only have whatever tracks were compiled onto the Dance Of The Rainbow Serpent box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 As much I love the first three Santana's records, and dislike "Love Devotion, ecc", I admit I never owned Caravanserai, not listen to it. I moderately appreciate Lotus, that I own in a dutch pressing. So since it's Guy's AOTW, I'll try to grab a vinyl in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 FWIW (and this may destroy my remaining credibility beyond repair), I thought "Smooth" was a decent bit of cookie-cutter Santana. Guy My mom's favorite song of all time. She's a big Rob Thomas fan... I wonder if a different mix of LDS would make the album something entirely different. I think bringing Larry Young and rhythm section out would make a huge difference, and toning the guitars down a bit. I understand this is a guitar album, but I think the music would be better served if the guitars weren't up front. I don't think the music is horrible. How is Laswell's remix of this? Is it a remix, or a REMIX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Second only to Caravanserai is Soul Sacrifice, for me. The "Santana Jam" is my favorite Santana song. I could listen to that piano theme for hours! Plus his cover of "Fried Neckbones & Some Home Fries" is smokin'. I want to hear some of the other jazz rock albums he did in the wake of Caravanserai, I only have whatever tracks were compiled onto the Dance Of The Rainbow Serpent box. Do you have Santana Live at the Fillmore 1968? Great version of Fried Neckbones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 FWIW (and this may destroy my remaining credibility beyond repair), I thought "Smooth" was a decent bit of cookie-cutter Santana. Guy I liked it a lot when it first came out. In fact, it's what led me to discover Santana in the first place (well, that and Woodstock). I just hate what it's spawned since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Second only to Caravanserai is Soul Sacrifice, for me. The "Santana Jam" is my favorite Santana song. I could listen to that piano theme for hours! Plus his cover of "Fried Neckbones & Some Home Fries" is smokin'. I want to hear some of the other jazz rock albums he did in the wake of Caravanserai, I only have whatever tracks were compiled onto the Dance Of The Rainbow Serpent box. Do you have Santana Live at the Fillmore 1968? Great version of Fried Neckbones. I'll add it to my (endless) list, Cary. I've actually only recently bought Abraxas, though I heard it a lot when I was younger. Hearing "Samba Pa Ti" for the first time in years was cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Second only to Caravanserai is Soul Sacrifice, for me. The "Santana Jam" is my favorite Santana song. I could listen to that piano theme for hours! Plus his cover of "Fried Neckbones & Some Home Fries" is smokin'. I want to hear some of the other jazz rock albums he did in the wake of Caravanserai, I only have whatever tracks were compiled onto the Dance Of The Rainbow Serpent box. Do you have Santana Live at the Fillmore 1968? Great version of Fried Neckbones. I'll add it to my (endless) list, Cary. I've actually only recently bought Abraxas, though I heard it a lot when I was younger. Hearing "Samba Pa Ti" for the first time in years was cool. Noj, Do you have Santana III, the Deluxe 2 CD edition? It is a must have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 On days like today, when I can really listen to this album, I am convinced that this is Santana's best album. I'm not one of those who screams for 5.1 surround-sound mixes of albums, but I cannot help but wonder at how this album would sound in a movie-theater-type setting, with the sound literally surrounding you. This music really is the sound of a literal caravan. Even more astounding, to me anyway, is how this stuff sounds so completely spontaneous. How could this stuff have been written down? It sounds like it's coming from someplace deep within, not off of some score sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Second only to Caravanserai is Soul Sacrifice, for me. The "Santana Jam" is my favorite Santana song. I could listen to that piano theme for hours! Plus his cover of "Fried Neckbones & Some Home Fries" is smokin'. I want to hear some of the other jazz rock albums he did in the wake of Caravanserai, I only have whatever tracks were compiled onto the Dance Of The Rainbow Serpent box. Do you have Santana Live at the Fillmore 1968? Great version of Fried Neckbones. Get it cheap, though; used or something. This is probably the highlight of the album, which is an otherwise bore to me. Nothing against Bob Livingston, but man he had to go. The guy has a five-minute drum solo on "Freeway," which consists of nothing more than him playing straight 4/4 time. ZZZZZZZZZZ. If you ever need to know why Mike Shrieve is the catalyst for this band, listen to the outtakes of the first album before Shrieve joined. If Livingston had stayed in the band, we wouldn't have this thread going right now because they would never have gotten this far. Really, if you want the definitive "Neckbones," get the DE of the first album, which has the entire Woodstock concert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Noj, Do you have Santana III, the Deluxe 2 CD edition? It is a must have! No, not the Deluxe edition. Dang it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Noj, Do you have Santana III, the Deluxe 2 CD edition? It is a must have! No, not the Deluxe edition. Dang it! Trade in whatever version you have and get the Deluxe Edition. It is worth every extra penny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Tom Harrel -- orchestral arrangement (10) I was copying-and-pasting the credits for the album and totally forgot to comment about this. This must've been pretty early in Tom's career. Guy Harrell was a member of Santana's sister band (kind of) Azteca at the time. Many Azteca members helped out on Santana 3 and Caravanserai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Santana III (Deluxe Version) is another high watermark in Santana's catalog. Some real progressive latin grooves happening on this one. The bonus material is really very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Get it cheap, though; used or something. This is probably the highlight of the album, which is an otherwise bore to me. Nothing against Bob Livingston, but man he had to go. The guy has a five-minute drum solo on "Freeway," which consists of nothing more than him playing straight 4/4 time. ZZZZZZZZZZ. If you ever need to know why Mike Shrieve is the catalyst for this band, listen to the outtakes of the first album before Shrieve joined. If Livingston had stayed in the band, we wouldn't have this thread going right now because they would never have gotten this far. I'm not as down on the Fillmore '68 recordings as Big Al, but otherwise agree with him 100%. The band got MUCH better after Livingston was replaced by Shrieve. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 i don't like borboleta. i like welcome better. neither is awesome but i thought borboleta was cheesy. i guess some of the songs might be nice to dance to but i felt the long jamming tune was especially disappointing and sort of formless. especially compared to the intstrumental work on caravanserai. Borbeleta is wildly inconsistent. There are some very strong, even great, poppish tunes ("Mirage" and "Give and Take" both with amazing vocals by Patillo) and some very weak ones, and some jazz/rock which also varied in quality. Not up to the level of the previous albums, but more interesting than any studio albums they would record in the 30+ years afterwards IMO (Santana did make a couple of interesting solo albums, especially 'Oneness: Silver Dreams Golden Realities'. But the one with Wayne Shorter, 'The Swing of Delight', is a snoozer). What has really stuck with me was a live show I saw ca. 1973 or 1974 of Santana (and CSNY) at the Atlantic City Raceway with 100,000 others. The Santana group was on fire that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Whatever happened to Doug Rauch? All I can gather from the notes to Caravanserai and Welcome is that he died all too soon, and that it was a tragic loss. What happened? I've done the Google search, Wikipedia, allmusic.... nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I actually like "The Swing of Delight". It is the closest to real jazz that Carlos ever got, and I think it works pretty well. "Welcome" is my favorite of the ambitious, jazz-oriented Santana albums though. I agree that "Borboletta" is not that great, except for the classic song "Mirage". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I actually like "The Swing of Delight". It is the closest to real jazz that Carlos ever got, and I think it works pretty well. I'm curious about this one. Many said it didn't live up to its potential (the Herbie/Ron/Tony rhythm section, plus as I understand it they don't play on every cut). I've almost bought it several times, but have not yet succumbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I actually like "The Swing of Delight". It is the closest to real jazz that Carlos ever got, and I think it works pretty well. I'm curious about this one. Many said it didn't live up to its potential (the Herbie/Ron/Tony rhythm section, plus as I understand it they don't play on every cut). I've almost bought it several times, but have not yet succumbed. They don't all play on every cut. To me, the entire album is listenable, which places it above many in Santana's recorded output. It is not like Plugged Nickle with Larry Coryell sitting in, or something like that. You can't expect that or you will be disappointed. It is more like a good jazz/fusion album from the days when that genre was still promising, although Swing of Delight was released several years after the genre was no longer promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I actually like "The Swing of Delight". It is the closest to real jazz that Carlos ever got, and I think it works pretty well. I'm curious about this one. Many said it didn't live up to its potential (the Herbie/Ron/Tony rhythm section, plus as I understand it they don't play on every cut). I've almost bought it several times, but have not yet succumbed. Very underwhelming. Another underwhelming one is Blues for Salvador. It's sometimes mentioned as his best of the post-1980 era, but is kinda average. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I actually like "The Swing of Delight". It is the closest to real jazz that Carlos ever got, and I think it works pretty well. I'm curious about this one. Many said it didn't live up to its potential (the Herbie/Ron/Tony rhythm section, plus as I understand it they don't play on every cut). I've almost bought it several times, but have not yet succumbed. Very underwhelming. Another underwhelming one is Blues for Salvador. It's sometimes mentioned as his best of the post-1980 era, but is kinda average. Guy Agreed, they all sound pretty dinky compared to the fire of the initial Santana releases (up through Lotus). Only a couple of live albums ('Moonflower' and 'Sacred Fire') can give a latter day listener even a clue as to what all the initial excitement was all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr jazz Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) late to the party but always loved Caravanserai and I agree with all the comments about Shrieve-he played so well amidst all the percussion. Where I differ is regarding Welcome-a fine side 1 that drifts somewhat on side 2 before a beautiful Naima ends the record. I think Borboletta is full of great music-one with the sun,life is anew, give and take have some scorching solos and Broussard's solo on Aspirations is well played. Side 2 features the extended promise of a fisherman with more inspired playing. Airto's bookmarking percussion is a nice touch. An underrated record that screams for remastering. The remastered Welcome is worth picking up as the percussion and drums are much clearer to my ear. I don't think Santana ever reached the heights as he did on these three seminal recordings all valuable in their own right. lotus has its moments but drags in a few places, still worth owning. Edited June 19, 2007 by mr jazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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