Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 First of all, let me apologize for bringing this up again. There was a similar thread at Blue Note a few years ago, and of course it's gone now (and I can't remember much detail). I know some of you are well squared away in terms of having blanks that work well in your machines, so this thread may be of no use to you. At any rate, if you are in that category, and also happen to use a Harman Kardon CDR-20, then I would appreciate any input you may care to share here. I've had an HK CDR-20 about three years, and for nearly all of that time I have used one specific type of blank- Memorex (Japanese, white label, blue dye). These have performed beautifully for me as a bread and butter, 1X blank for recording from any source- digital or analog. I have also stumbled upon another brand (Imation) that has been useful, but only for 4X burns from digital sources. These will not work at 1X, so I can't use them to burn from non-digital sources. The thing is, the Memorex discs that I used (and which have always been available in plentiful supplies locally) are apparently no longer being produced in Japan, but rather in Taiwan. At some point I bought a batch of the Taiwanese discs without realizing they were different, and discovered that they do not work in my HK. They no longer use the blue dye underneath, but I don't know if that's part of the problem. With my supply of the Japanese discs now dwindling, I called HK tech support today, and was disappointed to hear that the company does not keep track of what brands are compatible with their burners. The best suggestion they could give me was to try to locate a warehouse somewhere with a stock of those Japanese Memorexes. Even if I could locate some, I wonder how long the supply would hold out... So, I'm basically beginning a search for information regarding what I can use in my CDR-20 for 1X burns. Any and all comments or suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom in RI Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Jim, I've had good luck with Fuji brand cdr's made in Japan. Best Buy seem to put 100 packs (2 spindles of 50 shrink wrapped together) on special pretty frequently. If memory serves, with instant and mail in rebate the end cost is around $10-12 for the 100. They seem to go on special every 4-6 weeks and you can get them at their web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Thanks Tom. Is it safe to assume that you use a CDR-20? I used to see Fuji spindles in the same store where I bought the Memorex discs, but I've never tried them. At any rate, I wish there was a way to try a sample disc before taking the plunge on a package of 100... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Thorne Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Jim, I can't address all of your issues since I don't own a stand-alone burner. However, you should be able to find a 5-pack or 10-pack of Fuji blank CDs at an office supply store such as Office Max, or perhaps Fred Meyer, if there's one in your area. I've used Fuji CDs with flawless results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Thanks Ron, I'll keep that in mind. There's an Office Max nearby, which is where I've been buying the Imation discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Verbatim discs used to use the dark blue dye you're reffering to. Don't know if they still do. That said, Matsui are probably the best blanks money can buy. I don't have your burner, but I've never had a problem with Matsui. It's what a lot of studios use to burn reference copies of records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Yeah, I've received quite a few Verbatim discs in trades. Never seen any for sale around here, though (as far as I can recall). As far as the Matsuis, it sounds like they're very good- the only thing is I have no idea if they would be compatible with my burner. FWIW, I'm not even thinking that much about relative prices of discs at the moment. My main goal is just to find out what discs will actually work for me. I forgot to mention- the guy at HK told me that the dye color is irrelevant to the compatability issue. I had thought it was relevant, so I'm kind of feeling lost right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I've always heard it IS relevant. FWIW, the Matsui's use gold dye. They rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 From Sweetwater Sound (reputable dealers of music gear): Technical Tip Of The Day Mysteries about CDR colors revealed We've had many people ask us some variation on the question, "What is the difference in the different colored CDR discs and which ones are best?" First, it is actually amazingly difficult to get reliable and coherent information on this so we understand why there is so much confusion and misinformation around. Here's the deal: The basic building blocks of CD-R media are cyanine dye, which is cyan blue in color, and phthalocyanine dye, which is more or less colorless. The reflective layer is either a silvery alloy, the exact composition of which is proprietary, or 24K gold. There are gold/gold, green/gold, silver/blue, and silver/silver CD-Rs. The apparent color is determined by the color of the reflective layer (gold or silver) and the color of the dye (cyan or colorless). For example, green/gold discs combine a gold reflective layer with a cyan-colored dye, resulting in a gold appearance on the label side and a green appearance on the writing side. The reason why there are multiple formulations is that the materials and process for each are patented. If a new vendor wants to get into the CD-R market, they have to come up with a new combination of materials that conforms to the Orange Book specifications. Discs using the cyanine dye tend to have a wider tolerance for varying laser intensities, but the theory is that discs made with phthalocyanine dye will last longer. Of course CDR longevity is a hotly debated subject itself with few agreed upon facts. Discs using silver reflective layers are reported to have better reflectivity (gain) than gold discs, as well as better heat transfer when burning, but gold reflective layer discs are supposed to last longer. The gold discs also cost more to manufacture. Which is best? There is no answer to this question. Besides these basic building blocks there are a number of other variables in CDR manufacturing. The thickness of the dye or reflective layer can differ. The groove structure of the disc can be optimized for certain kinds of writing speeds and so forth. There are many, many variables. The bottom line is that all media today is light years better than it was just a few years ago (when they were $30 a disc). BLER's (Block Error Rates) have gone WAY down. Also, all discs have always had to conform to very rigid Orange Book standards. Players and recorders, on the other hand, have not. And that's where the trouble lies. They can vary wildly in their ability to read and write to various media. So, at the end of the day the only thing that ultimately matters in CDR media selection is what works with YOUR CD burner and CD players. There is little rhyme or reason to this. Some discs work great in one player, yet cannot be recognized or may skip wildly in another. Fortunately most burners you buy will recommend a specific type or brand of disc. We recommend you follow their recommendations. Beyond that anything you learn will be mostly by trial and error. Do not get caught up in the common sense that one type is inherently better than the other. We say the differences aren't that significant. The only thing that matters is what works well in your machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Part of the HK guy's explanation was that some data discs also use the blue dye, and therefore I can't just go out looking for discs with blue dye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Oops, looks like we were posting simultaneously. Jim, thanks for posting that article. I vaguely recall reading something like it before, and I must say it seems to be logical. Unfortunately, it leads me back to the (trial and error) drawing board. So, if I were to go out shopping right now, I'd have to select from brands that are packaged in small quantities (which could be limiting, in that some brands only seem to be available in large quantities); AND, even if I did know what type of reflective layer and dye were most suitable for my burner, you often can't tell what type a disc is when it's still in its packaging at the store. Well, maybe tomorrow some confirmed HK owners will check in here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Jim, as you may remember, I have similar problems with my Philips burner. I don't believe that the HK guy really knows what he is talking about. One reason is that I sincerely believe that in my burner color DOES make a difference. Blue died cds simply don't work any longer. Period. Silver (well really GREEN) such as Mitsui and Fuji can. . .but the only ones that consistently (okay about 80% of the time) work are Mitsui and KLONE (made by Mitsui) and even then I get spindles of these that won't consistently finalize. Really I ought to toss the thing in the trash hamper. I bought another older cheaper Philips single well cd burner off ebay that worked fine. . .until a label on a cdr came off and gummed it up . . . removing the label removed a white clamplike thang that I can't get back in. Sheesh. I don't know the answer. I bought an Alera Technologies standalone PC burner that usually performs flawlessly, but I can't do analog transfers on it. . . . .So for the meantime I go through the iffy chancy frustrating Philips process for those. Seems like your burner is about as frustrating as sending you an email is! I've almost given up on that lately as my last messages haven't made it I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjk Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) Jim, I have an HK-CDR 20 stand alone burner and I have NEVER had a problem with any home audio cdrs I've ever tried. I've had some duds in batches of cdrs in the past, but in these cases, I've just started over again with another disc in the same batch and I've been fine. I don't really stick to one particular brand of cdr, though I've never had a problem with the Maxell Gold series (only by Japanese manufacturer). As long as they're made in Japan, I'll buy them (I've been told to stay away from Taiwanese cdrs). As to the difference between blue-green-gold inks---I've never noticed. (afterthought) Jim, since we have the same burner, we could co-ordinate some tests, if you'd like. Let me know if there's any way I could help. Also, I just read the link that couw posted, and now I'm freakin' out about how long some of my music is going to last! Apparently, questions of quality run deeper than the Japan vs. Taiwan thing. Edited September 12, 2003 by jmjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Avoid Sony CDRs. I had about 1/3 of a 50-pack fail to write (and stall my computer up every time in the process), whereas with other brands I have maybe had one in a 50-pack fail (more often none at all). I threw my receipt out with the packaging, or I would have returned them. Sony, too--I figured they would be superior to other CDRs. I've had the best luck with ones called "Great Quality." They have no graphics on the top which is cool, and once burned they will play in any CD player. Dark blue writable surface though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Perhaps it was a fluke spindle...sure wish I'd kept that receipt. I wonder if it makes any difference with Mac as opposed to PC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 I've noticed that Sony cdrs can present reading problems in some players that otherwise accept cdrs easily. This is curious stuff, the whole biz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Lon, the e-mail situation is indeed distressing. I haven't received any mail from you for weeks. I'll try sending you one shortly... Jeff, thanks for your input. I'll try to PM you, as your "afterthought" reminds me of an idea I had considered. If you don't get the PM, you can e-mail me at sjrowans@aol.com Noj and Couw, your exchange regarding the Sony discs is a good example of why I think it's more important to focus on compatability than on a perception of "quality". I'm a lot more concerned about consistent compatability in a brand than I am about whether it's going to last 50 years as opposed to 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 As I said before, I have had good luck with a generic brand called "Great Quality," especially the ones they've had recently that have no graphics on the CDR. They seem to be compatable with any player, from PCs to boom boxes to DVD players, and were $8 a 50-pack at Fry's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Just wanted to mention that I replied to your PM, Tom in RI; and also sent a PM to jmjk. In both cases, I got the dreaded error message... My e-mail address is posted above, in case anybody wants to contact me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 All of this stuff is a mystery to me and I will never completely understand it. One oddity I have encountered is that I have two boomboxes in my office and at home that initially read CD-Rs with no problem. No I have to play with the one in my office to get it to read them and it usually does, but the boombox at home no longer reads any CD-Rs. Can anyone offer an explanation why that would occur? Have all the different dyes and whatever from the discs seeped into my boomboxes changing the lasers permanently? gremlins I say. Gremlins. Anyone have any thoughts on whether one of those CD cleaner discs may help the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man with the Golden Arm Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Skimmed through the posts but whatever you do DO NOT!!!! use Philips CDRs. I've had the tops (where de info iz) peel like foil from a Wrigleys gum wrapper. Datz a no gouda. Go American Digital for all your archival needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 my experience with Sony cdrs is almost identical to NOJ's - about 10 or 15 in a 50 pack were unusable. I've also had trouble with Sony Disc Man players. They sound fine but often stop reading the cd - usually toward the end - and they skip. The same discs play flawlessly on another (Panosonic) Discman I have. I've had two Sony players that act like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Yeah, I've received quite a few Verbatim discs in trades. Never seen any for sale around here, though (as far as I can recall). As far as the Matsuis, it sounds like they're very good- the only thing is I have no idea if they would be compatible with my burner. FWIW, I'm not even thinking that much about relative prices of discs at the moment. My main goal is just to find out what discs will actually work for me. I forgot to mention- the guy at HK told me that the dye color is irrelevant to the compatability issue. I had thought it was relevant, so I'm kind of feeling lost right now... Jim, here is a Link to Verbatim, and where to buy them, if it helps.... http://www.verbatim.com/products/products.....cfm?pro_id=379 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluerein Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hello all, I believe a year ago or so there was a discussion like this on the BN BB and the Matsui disc's were supposed to be the best. Someone (I believe Kevin B) had found an Australian seller for spindels of these disc's for a good price but I can't find it anymore. I've ordered 100 cd's then and they are indeed perfect. And even with shipping to the Netherlands much cheaper than anywhere else. Can someone please give me the web address of that seller in Australia? Thanks in advance and all the best, Reinier bluebevervoorde@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaney Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Can someone please give me the web address of that seller in Australia? Hi Reinier (and GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE!), I believe this is it ---> Linux Jewellery Store I use Mitsui Gold and get mine from American-Digital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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