Chet Baker - Pacific Jazz Recordings

[John L]

Hm, so if there are indeed two versions (I've not had time to compare yet), I need to keep the "Best of" just because of that!

These are the two discs in question:

Chet Baker Sings and The Best of Chet Baker Sings (the latter carried a subtitle/title on the back of the cover and on the disc, but not on front and neither on the back tray, "Let's Get Lost").

EDIT: Oh, so there are even three takes! Thanks for that, will have to compare then... but I assume the "Best of" may indeed contain one of the earlier tracks then. How silly that they didn't add that version (or both of them) to a later reissue!

But the earlier tracks are said to be instrumental only? Then the vocal track would be the same one again... what a mess. Will have to look into it tomorrow!

Thanks a lot, Jim!

According to the Lord discography, the two instrumental takes of Thrill is Gone come from an earlier session on October 3, 1953 with Russ Freeman, Carson Smith, and Larry Bunker.

[king ubu]

Two instrumental takes are on here, #15 & 16:

Chet Baker Quartet Featuring Russ Freeman

So the question that remains is all about the vocal take(s) on "Chet Baker Sings" and "Best of Chet Baker Sings" - to find out if they're identical, I'll have to compare the two later on at home.

Jim, how many vocal versions of the tune does the Mosaic contain? I think I have the discographical information at home, but I can only check tonight. Allmusic has no track listing, alas.

[Jim R]

So the question that remains is all about the vocal take(s) on "Chet Baker Sings" and "Best of Chet Baker Sings" - to find out if they're identical, I'll have to compare the two later on at home.

Jim, how many vocal versions of the tune does the Mosaic contain? I think I have the discographical information at home, but I can only check tonight. Allmusic has no track listing, alas.

There is just one vocal version in the Mosaic set. The existence of just one vocal version is consistent with what's indicated in the 1985 discography. It's the recording dates that are puzzling me.

The way I look at it (which is more of a discographer's viewpoint), the remaining question is with regard to which recording dates (and thus, which personnel) are correct. The information gathered by the two men who devoted themselves to compiling and publishing a discography dedicated to Chet (as well as the information listed on the back of the original 12" LP) conflicts with both the Mosaic discography as well as the info given on some of the CD reissues. Since the Mosaic notes don't indicate that a correction was made at some point to the actual recording dates, and I haven't seen any indication of that anywhere else, I'm still not convinced that the Mosaic discography is correct. An error may have been made long ago, and everyone is simply repeating it. OR, the Lerfeldt/Sjogren discography (and the liner on the LP) could have been wrong... but you'd think somebody would have pointed out the error, as opposed to just going with different dates with no comment or footnote about it. I'm torn between believing what I see in the Mosaic discography (a pretty well-researched thing) and believing a published discography on Chet (and what it says on the original LP). I tend to disregard what it says on CD reissue booklets, where a LOT of errors are made.

For the time being, I'm going with Lerfeldt and Sjogren (2 instrumental versions recorded Oct. 27, 1953 with Freeman, Mondragon and Manne; vocal version recorded Feb. 15, 1954 with Freeman, Smith and Neel). If the Mosaic dates are correct, I think they should have included a note about the conflicting data.

[king ubu]

So there's only one version - then I won't need to compare, thanks!

Your reasoning makes a lot of sense to me, too. So the mistake was that the (1989) "Best of" disc had the date and line-up from the instrumental takes but actually contained the vocal take. If that's all there is to it in the end, and others copied that mistake, it's not such a big issue, after all.

So the book was correct, after all?

But what with Lord's date as of October 3 instead of October 27?

[Clunky]

A big for the three volumes of Chet Baker Quartet Live (Pacific Jazz). I note that Volume 1 claims to have 4 tracks ( August 12th 1953-Carlton Theatre LA) not previously issued on the Mosaic set of this material.

Very fine material in my view largely because Russ Freeman beefed up Chet and makes his music sound better by being more muscular.

[Chuck Nessa]

The notes to the first volume make a claim for earlier recording dates than those previously published. The PJ catalog is a mess.

[Jim R]

So there's only one version - then I won't need to compare, thanks!

Right, that's the good news here.

Your reasoning makes a lot of sense to me, too. So the mistake was that the (1989) "Best of" disc had the date and line-up from the instrumental takes but actually contained the vocal take. If that's all there is to it in the end, and others copied that mistake, it's not such a big issue, after all.

I don't know when the conflicting data first appeared, but no, not a big issue. It just bugs me (I tend to be hyper-vigilant about these things, like a real discographer ).

So the book was correct, after all?

I don't know for sure, but it still seems like a good possibility- especially with the liner on my original copy of PJ 1222 showing the same date as the book for that vocal recording.

But what with Lord's date as of October 3 instead of October 27?

I have no grudges against Lord or anything, I just haven't seen any "official" correction to Lerfeldt and Sjogren's data, and that on the PJ 1222 liner. Discographers, no matter how well-respected, are human, and sometimes run with someone else's errors.

[king ubu]

Thanks for bearing with me, Jim! Much appreciated!

[romualdo]

For that reason I would welcome recommendations for Chet's PJ/WP albums. I'm not shy of hunting down LPs or Japanese releases, so feel free to recommend original albums (both with and without his singing) that would serve as a good starting point.

One of my favourites is the Baker/Twardzik Barclay session(s) recorded in Paris (Oct 55) - these were leased by Pacific Jazz & most titles released on the PJ LP Chet Baker In Europe (1218)

Universal France released this in 2003 in its original cover design; it's also in the big Baker Barclay box (excuse the alliteration)

IMHO any of the Baker/Twardzik recordings (live or studio) are worth picking up

CB/DT - The Lost Holland Concert - RLR 88621

CB/DT - Koln Concert - RLR 88618

CB/DT - Indian Summer - Dutch Jazz Archives 901665

Lars Gullin featuring CB - Vol. 1 (55/56) - Dragon 224

regarding the "The Thrill Is Gone" confusion, I've sent an email to James Harrod who is currently in the process of writing a book on the PJ label.

[king ubu]

There's also this one from Paris:

http://www.amazon.fr/Chet-Baker-Quintet-Bobby-Jaspar/dp/B00394S542/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301641691&sr=1-2

For those not willing to shelve out lots of money for the big box and not in possession of the old four discs and unwilling to give $$ to the thieves.

[JamesAHarrod]

For that reason I would welcome recommendations for Chet's PJ/WP albums. I'm not shy of hunting down LPs or Japanese releases, so feel free to recommend original albums (both with and without his singing) that would serve as a good starting point.

One of my favourites is the Baker/Twardzik Barclay session(s) recorded in Paris (Oct 55) - these were leased by Pacific Jazz & most titles released on the PJ LP Chet Baker In Europe (1218)

Universal France released this in 2003 in its original cover design; it's also in the big Baker Barclay box (excuse the alliteration)

IMHO any of the Baker/Twardzik recordings (live or studio) are worth picking up

CB/DT - The Lost Holland Concert - RLR 88621

CB/DT - Koln Concert - RLR 88618

CB/DT - Indian Summer - Dutch Jazz Archives 901665

Lars Gullin featuring CB - Vol. 1 (55/56) - Dragon 224

regarding the "The Thrill Is Gone" confusion, I've sent an email to James Harrod who is currently in the process of writing a book on the PJ label.

I tend to go along with original source material as the best information. The liner notes for PJLP-6 (10" instrumental version) and WP-1249 (12" instrumental version) of TTIG both credit Carson Smith and Larry Bunker. Thus the information listed in the Mosaic set was in error and Michael corrected this when he reissued the material in the WCC series where he lists the date as October 3, 1953.

Similarly the liner notes for TTIG vocal version on PJLP-11 credit Carson Smith and Bob Neel and PJ-1222 also credits these two with a date, February 15, 1954.

Let's Get Lost - The Best of Chet Baker Sings (CDP 7 92932 2 issued in 1989) that listed the wrong date has been corrected on recent Japanese reissues of the vocal version, TOCJ-5951 and TOCJ-6111 both list the February 15, 1954 date.

A correction: Stephen has just pointed out to me that the Mosaic set does list the correct date for the instrumental versions of TTIG. I looked at the LP Mosaic set and should have checked the CD set as well that has an errata sheet listing the 10” and 12” versions (although the LP set does list the 10” version and correct date – apologies to MC). A bit too hasty in my response.

Edited April 2, 2011 by James Harrod

[Jim R]

I tend to go along with original source material as the best information. The liner notes for PJLP-6 (10" instrumental version) and WP-1249 (12" instrumental version) of TTIG both credit Carson Smith and Larry Bunker. Thus the information listed in the Mosaic set was in error and Michael corrected this when he reissued the material in the WCC series where he lists the date as October 3, 1953.

James, as I mentioned above, Lerfeldt and Sjogren show the two instrumental takes as being recorded at the October 27, 1953 session with Mondragon and Manne. Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also.

According to Lerfeldt and Sjogren, the October 3, 1953 session (with Carson Smith and Larry Bunker) included these tunes (no TTIG):

No ties

Band aid

Bea's flat

All the things you are

Moon love

Happy little sunbeam

Happy little sunbeam (alt take)

[Jim R]

Hmm... now that I've thought about it a bit more, I'm not sure it makes any sense to trust Lerfeldt and Sjogren on that one. Still seems odd, though, that they would have made that error...

Edited April 1, 2011 by Jim R

[John L]

Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also.

Why do you think that they were right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session>

[JamesAHarrod]

I tend to go along with original source material as the best information. The liner notes for PJLP-6 (10" instrumental version) and WP-1249 (12" instrumental version) of TTIG both credit Carson Smith and Larry Bunker. Thus the information listed in the Mosaic set was in error and Michael corrected this when he reissued the material in the WCC series where he lists the date as October 3, 1953.

James, as I mentioned above, Lerfeldt and Sjogren show the two instrumental takes as being recorded at the October 27, 1953 session with Mondragon and Manne. Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also.

According to Lerfeldt and Sjogren, the October 3, 1953 session (with Carson Smith and Larry Bunker) included these tunes (no TTIG):

No ties

Band aid

Bea's flat

All the things you are

Moon love

Happy little sunbeam

Happy little sunbeam (alt take)

Lerfeldt and Sjøgren (1985) indeed do not show TTIG (instrumental version) in their listing for October 3, 1953 (pages 7 & 8). They do list TTIG (vocal version) in their listing for February 15, 1954 (pages 9 & 10).

Thorbjørn Sjøgren’s hardbound discography (1993) does list TTIG (instrumental version) in his entry for the October 3, 1953 session (page 28). His listing for TTIG (vocal version) on page 29 lists it with the October 27, 1953 session that had Mondragon and Manne.

Once again I cite the source material liner notes on the backs of the original albums that clearly identify Carson Smith and Bob Neel backing Chet and Russ on the vocal version, and Carson Smith and Larry Bunker on the instrumental versions.

We can only guess why Sjøgren changed the placement of the recording date for the vocal version that was February 15, 1954 in the first paperback edition with Lerfeldt to October 27, 1953 in his solo revision in 1993?

[king ubu]

Why are liner notes specially trustworthy?

Of course the time distance is much shorter... but if some writer gets some info and a test pressing, why would his information be particularly accurate? Or were the liners written by Dick Bock and was he present during the sessions?

Not doubting any of the information on display here, just wondering!

[Jim R]

Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also.

Why do you think that they were right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session>

A couple of reasons. First, as I posted yesterday, and Mr. Harrod has echoed, the original records showed this information specifically (in the case of PJ 1222, not just comments about the players in the essay, but specific discographical data at the top of the liner).

Secondly, it has always seemed logical to me to put my trust in the people who have done the research and published a discography on a specific artist (in this case, Chet). From what James has said above, that now seems like it may not always be a good idea, depending on the age of the particular edition of the discography one owns.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Jim R

[Jim R]

I tend to go along with original source material as the best information. The liner notes for PJLP-6 (10" instrumental version) and WP-1249 (12" instrumental version) of TTIG both credit Carson Smith and Larry Bunker. Thus the information listed in the Mosaic set was in error and Michael corrected this when he reissued the material in the WCC series where he lists the date as October 3, 1953.

James, as I mentioned above, Lerfeldt and Sjogren show the two instrumental takes as being recorded at the October 27, 1953 session with Mondragon and Manne. Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also.

According to Lerfeldt and Sjogren, the October 3, 1953 session (with Carson Smith and Larry Bunker) included these tunes (no TTIG):

No ties

Band aid

Bea's flat

All the things you are

Moon love

Happy little sunbeam

Happy little sunbeam (alt take)

Lerfeldt and Sjøgren (1985) indeed do not show TTIG (instrumental version) in their listing for October 3, 1953 (pages 7 & 8). They do list TTIG (vocal version) in their listing for February 15, 1954 (pages 9 & 10).

Thorbjørn Sjøgren’s hardbound discography (1993) does list TTIG (instrumental version) in his entry for the October 3, 1953 session (page 28). His listing for TTIG (vocal version) on page 29 lists it with the October 27, 1953 session that had Mondragon and Manne.

Okay, thanks. I only own the 1985 paperback version, and was basing my comments only on that.

Once again I cite the source material liner notes on the backs of the original albums that clearly identify Carson Smith and Bob Neel backing Chet and Russ on the vocal version, and Carson Smith and Larry Bunker on the instrumental versions.

That's the best evidence of all, I'd say. I no longer own the 10" LP with the instrumental version, so thanks for clarifying that.

We can only guess why Sjøgren changed the placement of the recording date for the vocal version that was February 15, 1954 in the first paperback edition with Lerfeldt to October 27, 1953 in his solo revision in 1993?

Too bad he didn't explain this in a footnote.

[Jim R]

Why are liner notes specially trustworthy?

Of course the time distance is much shorter... but if some writer gets some info and a test pressing, why would his information be particularly accurate? Or were the liners written by Dick Bock and was he present during the sessions?

Not doubting any of the information on display here, just wondering!

A fair question. I don't know the specific answer in this case, but there does seem to be less room for error in this scenario, as compared to someone trying to piece things together years later.

[Jim R]

I no longer own the 10" LP with the instrumental version...

Oops, I do indeed still have it. Just didn't think to pull it out and look for info on it. James is correct- Smith and Bunker credited in the notes- as well as on the label itself, which points to Oct. 3, 1953 for the instrumentals.

[JamesAHarrod]

Why are liner notes specially trustworthy?

Of course the time distance is much shorter... but if some writer gets some info and a test pressing, why would his information be particularly accurate? Or were the liners written by Dick Bock and was he present during the sessions?

Not doubting any of the information on display here, just wondering!

Mistakes did happen at Pacific Jazz during the early years. The first pressings of MEET MR. GORDON mislabeled MODUS OPERANDI and TWO CAN PLAY. On matrix PJ-422 MODUS OPERANDI is the second track. The flip side, matrix PJ-423, has TWO CAN PLAY on the second track. These were reversed on the first pressing, a label mistake that was corrected on subsequent releases.

A similar mix up occurred on the next 10” LP release, Laurindo Almeida Quartet, Volume 2, PJLP-13. The fourth track on matrix PJ-424 is ACERCATE MAS and the third track on the flip side, matrix PJ-425, is INQUIETACAO. The first pressing had these titles reversed, and it was corrected on subsequent releases with revised labels.

Another mistake was made on a compilation of Rodgers and Hart tunes on JWC-504. The second track on side two was supposed to a Chet Baker version of ISN’T IT ROMANTIC? The track is actually THE LAMP IS LOW from Chet’s first 10” LP. I have not bothered to acquire addition copies of this release to see if it was remastered as a label change would not correct the problem.

So the fledgling company was not immune to mistakes. But one can hope that the artists who appeared on these albums had a vested interest in seeing that their efforts were correctly identified and acknowledged in the liner notes or label credits.

[Chuck Nessa]

You assume way too much.

[Bluesnik]

"Sings & Plays", "Sextet", "Ensemble" and "Big Band".

i have these in their standalone edition, which i think you are referring to. and i also have some of the older editions, like grey december. an advantage of the newer ones is that they replicate the original edition, with its proper cover and its choice of songs. so they're no compilations, like some of the old ones used to be. but they would duplicate material. that's for sure. but, on the other hand, you would get a better sound (at least only because they're contemporary. well, as contemporary as a cd from 2004 can be).

as for your question, i'm not sure. i would prefer the newer editions. but if you already have the material and are happy with it, or its sound...

[king ubu]

"Sings & Plays", "Sextet", "Ensemble" and "Big Band".

i have these in their standalone edition, which i think you are referring to. and i also have some of the older editions, like grey december. an advantage of the newer ones is that they replicate the original edition, with its proper cover and its choice of songs. so they're no compilations, like some of the old ones used to be. but they would duplicate material. that's for sure. but, on the other hand, you would get a better sound (at least only because they're contemporary. well, as contemporary as a cd from 2004 can be).

as for your question, i'm not sure. i would prefer the newer editions. but if you already have the material and are happy with it, or its sound...

I forgot to add that in the meantime I did get nearly all the new versions replicating the original albums!

I gave away the older discs (Grey December was one of them), still need the 2004 reissue of "Big Band", got the old one (that adds the Sextet date, but the 2004 Sextet reissue has the most intriguing Bob Zieff bonus session!)

Another old one I'll keep is "Young Chet", with a few overdubbed quartet tracks (several titles w/Bill Perkins, one with Jimmy Giuffre added) and the remainders of "Chet Baker & Crew" (of which, too, I'll stick with the older version).

One of the reasons it took me so long - actually the main reason - to get these updated editions is that they all stem from the short period when EMI yurp threw out copy-crap editions hence these only turned up in such versions in the local bins.