Hot Dog Appreciation thread

[Soulstation1]

i want a little girl

[AllenLowe]

nice to see you too, Dan - must remember to tell you how a bullet entering from the front will not necessarily exit on a straight path but will hold off here, because that has nothing to do with the current topic -

as for soul jazz I still prefer the real thing - as in more pop-oriented singer/performers who actually have a feel for the blues - let say:

Lil Green

Peggy Lee (pre-1950)

Cecil Gant

where's edc when I need him?

Edited March 7, 2008 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Is your "problem" with Lou, or with the entire thing? Becuase, disagree with it as I do, I can see it if it's just with Lou. but dude, those bands of his... you're talking the real deal there, and massively so.

[AllenLowe]

well, I hate that record -

I've heard Lou quite a few times, knew his bass player (Jeff Fuller, who worked with him a bit), also got very friendly with Herman Foster in NYC in the 1970s - Herman, by the way, plays on most of those old Gloria Lynn records - now that's also great stuff - Herman played great, nice guy, if occasionally lacking in taste -

I always found Donaldson to be uninspired; I have no problem with the movement itself, just find a lot of the players unable to tell the difference between gimmick and feeling -

[AllenLowe]

also, gotta admit, if Gould likes it, I usually figure I shouldn't -

maybe not a foolproof method of critical judgement -

[Dan Gould]

also, gotta admit, if Gould likes it, I usually figure I shouldn't -

maybe not a foolproof method of critical judgement -

I'll run your don't like it up against Mike Flanagin, MG, Shawn and Jim and you are blown so far out of the water its not remotely funny. You are Simon Cowell against the rest of the world, only you think your opinion should matter.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I always found Donaldson to be uninspired; I have no problem with the movement itself, just find a lot of the players unable to tell the difference between gimmick and feeling -

I don't agree, but I CAN understand someone feeling Lou was uninspired. Lou, to me, liked elegant shapes. He wasn't, in himself, a dirty player (greasy, yes, but not dirty) and I can understand that, because he knew those shapes very well, it can seem that he was just churning them out. To me, the feeling transmitted - and you know, I don't give a damn about the music - is the key to it all. And, to me, Lou FEELS so right.

So, OK.

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

I really feel in the minority here re Hot Dog 'cause I neither love it nor hate it. I love Soul Jazz, in both the broadest possible sense and the narrower rare groove era sense discussed here. I love Lou too, although there is a point to Allen's comment re "slumming"... gotta think he'd rather play bebop or standards, his protestations that nothing changed in his playing in this period are a little hard to take at face value - sure it's all part of a social music continuim, but this point on it is still different than that. And I feel that this era in soul jazz '67-72, while groovingly functional, suffers from the absurdity of aging artists who were already v. funky in their own ways trying a little too hard to be FUNKY in the then new post-JB sorta way. That said some of my fav's from the period:

Lou D: Alligator B., Say It Loud [love that it has JB and Gershwin and Ellington]

Grant Green: all of 'em up thru Visions, but esp'ly the Live ones, despite Claude Bartee

Reuben W: Love Bug, On Broadway

Stanley T: Common Touch

Jack McD: Down Home Style

John Patton: That Certain Feeling, Understanding, Boogaloo, the session with Geo. Coleman that was split as bonus tracks.

But I don't know if I like any of 'em as much as I like early '60s stuff by Fred Jackson, Don Wilkerson, John Patton (Blue John), Lou D, Stanley T(jubilee Shout!), or all that son of Sidewinder stuff. My taste in R&B/Soul runs the same way, much as I know that what the JBs did was historically important, I actually like the more old fashioned groove of the MGs better. And of course, general stylistic preferences can always be trumped by a great song or just a particularly inspired day in the studio...

Groove on, Dana

[Soul Stream]

And I feel that this era in soul jazz '67-72, while groovingly functional, suffers from the absurdity of aging artists who were already v. funky in their own ways trying a little too hard to be FUNKY in the then new post-JB sorta way --quote from Danagoodstuff.

Man, I really dig this quote! Really right on in a lot of ways. One of the things I find very appealing about this era is you've got some greying cats like Lou, hitting it hard with young guys like Lonnie, Charlie Earland, Leon Morris, ect. Even Reuben Wilson was no spring chicken at the time. But it's that idea of "Yeah, let's get hip to the kids and the new style" that I find attractive for whatever reason. Jimmy Smith in huge collar with his fist raised on the cover of Root Down. Or and middle aged Lou walking with a young sister with huge fro.... Yeah, it's part of the appeal for me, no denying it. Plus the experience those guys bring to the music, busting up against the youngsters...I mean Lou and Leon Spencer Jr...that was on fire.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And I feel that this era in soul jazz '67-72, while groovingly functional, suffers from the absurdity of aging artists who were already v. funky in their own ways trying a little too hard to be FUNKY in the then new post-JB sorta way --quote from Danagoodstuff.

Man, I really dig this quote! Really right on in a lot of ways. One of the things I find very appealing about this era is you've got some greying cats like Lou, hitting it hard with young guys like Lonnie, Charlie Earland, Leon Morris, ect. Even Reuben Wilson was no spring chicken at the time. But it's that idea of "Yeah, let's get hip to the kids and the new style" that I find attractive for whatever reason. Jimmy Smith in huge collar with his fist raised on the cover of Root Down. Or and middle aged Lou walking with a young sister with huge fro.... Yeah, it's part of the appeal for me, no denying it. Plus the experience those guys bring to the music, busting up against the youngsters...I mean Lou and Leon Spencer Jr...that was on fire.

Yes, I do agree. No one thinks it odd or inappropriate or "trying too hard" that Hawk was keeping up...

The other point is that Soul Jazz, as kind of the Jazz stream of black popular music, was pretty well compelled by its own internal cultural aesthetic thrust to keep up with what was going on in R&B. Had it not, it seems to me that it would not have been true to what musicians from Jacquet/Ammons/Wilkerson/Gator/WBDavis/Donaldson/Turrentine/Crawford/Newman etc had been trying to do.

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

ummm, I'm tempted to say something snarkey like 'nice that you loved it, too bad you didn't get it' but that's not v. nice or even quite accurate - I don't think we're exactly agreeing or totally disageeing here. So I'll try to clarify. Unless you're a singular genius on the level of Monk it's hard to just go your own sweet way and many of the attempts to stay 'with it' were at least interesting, sometimes better than that. Their success largely depended on how much they had in common with the new thing to start with - Grant Green was always a groove oriented player so it was no stretch to focus on that. Someone who IMHO sounded like a fish out of water and played perfunktory groove music as a result was Sonny Stitt, YMMV. Still better to try and fail than not try at all. I find most Prestige dates of this era/groove more forced than BN's, with the exception of Houston Person who was and is a natural soul. Maybe it comes down to whether you prefer things that epitomize a genre or things that transcend and/or confound it. In this, as in all things, I remain steadfastly non-Platonic.

[connoisseur series500]

also, gotta admit, if Gould likes it, I usually figure I shouldn't -

maybe not a foolproof method of critical judgement -

I'll run your don't like it up against Mike Flanagin, MG, Shawn and Jim and you are blown so far out of the water its not remotely funny. You are Simon Cowell against the rest of the world, only you think your opinion should matter.

You can add me to your list as well, Dan. I like Lou's funky 70's stuff.

Not sure about the assassination conspiracy stuff either. Seems a long shot. But of course, Lowe thinks Kennedy was shot because he was pulling out of Nam? Did he post that somewhere? For Cryin' out loud, who put us in Nam to begin with?

[Jim Alfredson]

Let's keep the political stuff out of here, please?

I like Lou's funky BN sides. I do think there is a delicate balance between making records that latch onto the "new thing" and faking it. I don't personally feel Lou faked it. Now, those Larry Young Arista sides... whoo boy! Those are some stinkers!

[connoisseur series500]

Let's keep the political stuff out of here, please?

It's actually history, Jim. I don't post in politics. But your point is taken. I just couldn't find the thread where it was originally discussed.

Edited March 7, 2008 by connoisseur series500

[JSngry]

Look at the times - the big, overriding theme was "say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud".

Now, what African-American jazz musician, middle-aged, middle-class or otherwise, wouldn't take heart in that? And if you were "popular oriented", as Lou had always been as a bandleader, why wouldn't you want a piece of that action? This ain't Buddy Rich in a Nehru, dig? This is a people seeing their young people make a real move, a move that they themselves had been building towards and hoping for. And now it starts to happen. How do you not get caught up in that somehow? It was so not just about the beat.

As afar as the actual music goes, hey, whatever, if you dig it, don't, ambivalentize it, that's not my point. My point is that seeing "aging artists who were already v. funky in their own ways trying a little too hard to be FUNKY in the then new post-JB sorta way" is a little more organic than might be being acknowledged.

[JSngry]

Someone who IMHO sounded like a fish out of water and played perfunktory groove music as a result was Sonny Stitt, YMMV.

I would only add that Sonny Stitt made a fair amount of perfunctory music in all genres, not just groove music.

[Soul Stream]

ummm, I'm tempted to say something snarkey like 'nice that you loved it, too bad you didn't get it' but that's not v. nice or even quite accurate - I don't think we're exactly agreeing or totally disageeing here. So I'll try to clarify. Unless you're a singular genius on the level of Monk it's hard to just go your own sweet way and many of the attempts to stay 'with it' were at least interesting, sometimes better than that. Their success largely depended on how much they had in common with the new thing to start with - Grant Green was always a groove oriented player so it was no stretch to focus on that. Someone who IMHO sounded like a fish out of water and played perfunktory groove music as a result was Sonny Stitt, YMMV. Still better to try and fail than not try at all. I find most Prestige dates of this era/groove more forced than BN's, with the exception of Houston Person who was and is a natural soul. Maybe it comes down to whether you prefer things that epitomize a genre or things that transcend and/or confound it. In this, as in all things, I remain steadfastly non-Platonic.

I know my reply sounded like I didn't get your post...sorry. I understood that you thought this was old men aging badly, ect....like Stitt and Donaldson. That said, my point is that I think this is why this music worked so well. Lou brought a maturity and musicality to the groove that would have been lost had it been up to the kids by themselves. Charles Earland's solo on Hot Dog would sound trite had it not been for the complexity of Lou's approach that made a nice contrast. Ying and Yang.ect...

Sonny Stitt and Melvin Sparks on "Miss Riverside"

Rusty Bryant and Bill Mason on "FireEater"

Johnny "Hammond Smith" and Wally Richardson on "Dirty Apple"

and so on and so on...

[analogak]

johnny hammond you could make that fucking argument through the entire 70s!

my favorite of his albums is actually probably "don't let the system get you down" but he was still for the most part playing with younger "cats" even then in 1977/78.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Look at the times - the big, overriding theme was "say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud".

Now, what African-American jazz musician, middle-aged, middle-class or otherwise, wouldn't take heart in that? And if you were "popular oriented", as Lou had always been as a bandleader, why wouldn't you want a piece of that action? This ain't Buddy Rich in a Nehru, dig? This is a people seeing their young people make a real move, a move that they themselves had been building towards and hoping for. And now it starts to happen. How do you not get caught up in that somehow? It was so not just about the beat.

As afar as the actual music goes, hey, whatever, if you dig it, don't, ambivalentize it, that's not my point. My point is that seeing "aging artists who were already v. funky in their own ways trying a little too hard to be FUNKY in the then new post-JB sorta way" is a little more organic than might be being acknowledged.

I know you're right, Jim. But it's funny that there were plenty of musicians who DIDN'T get caught up in it. Gator Tail is the great example. But so were most of the musicians of that generation who went off to Paris and recorded for Black & Blue, because they couldn't get sessions with the US companies: Jacquet, Chamblee, Cobb, W B Davis, Buckner and so on. They could have done what Lou, Jug, Sonny, Doggett, George Freeman, Nat Jones (JB's arranger in the mid-sixties and a musician from the thirties who played in that Jack Travis' band) and others of that generation were doing, had they wanted to. There's no doubt that they were as "popular oriented" as Lou & co. No doubt that they could have brought it off musically.

So why the split? I haven't really thought about this before, but it's really quite an interesting thing.

MG

[AllenLowe]

uh, historically challenged ones, JFK did not put us in Vietnam; that goes back to about 1954 -

but we won't go there except to say that it's not fair, anyway, to put words in my mouth, as I never even said what connosseur seems to think I said

back to soul Jazz -

jazz musicians almost always sound like they are over-qualified when they play that stuff; even Willis Jackson, who could play some nice Herschal Evans, sounded to me just self conscious when he went into his act - for me, once I've listened to the real thing (the afforementioned Gloria Lynn; any real old blues and hillbilly) than most of that soul-jazz stuff doesn't cut it - with a few exceptions, as I've already mentioned -

as Miles said about OP, playing flat thirds and blues cliche phrases doesn't make you a blues player -

[AllenLowe]

ironically, as we argue, there is a thread about the Black Jazz label, which to me offered some real and African American alternatives to the Soul Jazz dead end -

Edited March 8, 2008 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

and just to re-clarify, I still like a lot of what we are calling soul jazz (still not a good term anyway); but I think Hot Dog is just a terrible record - if we thought it was by Kenny G we would all be ripping at it -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

jazz musicians almost always sound like they are over-qualified when they play that stuff; even Willis Jackson, who could play some nice Herschal Evans, sounded to me just self conscious when he went into his act - for me, once I've listened to the real thing (the afforementioned Gloria Lynn; any real old blues and hillbilly) than most of that soul-jazz stuff doesn't cut it - with a few exceptions, as I've already mentioned -

as Miles said about OP, playing flat thirds and blues cliche phrases doesn't make you a blues player -

Two things.

Gloria Lynne is fine - though I've got a few of her Everest albums and find her approach on those rather brittle for my taste, particularly compared to her more recent work - particularly "This one's on me". But I don't see her work as being more real than that of Irene Reid, Dakota Staton or Etta Jones, to take a few examples nearly at random. (But I wish I had some of Gloria with the one and only Herman Foster.)

Second, your linking of this with "real old blues and hillbily" rings the wrong bell with me. One of the things I've definitely concluded about myself after 50 odd years of listening to music is that I have no interest in rural music. Not even the traditional types of music from Africa that I have in my collection are rural; they're all from urban traditions. So, from my point of view, and I don't think I'm notably eccentric - at least not in this - rural music is in no way a substitute for urban music. I'm sure there are people who would say exactly the opposite. And I'm sure there are people for whom both rural and urban traditions are grist to their mill. But whichever way you want to cut that cake doesn't make one better or worse than the other; just different and, certainly, more to an individal's taste.

MG

[AllenLowe]

well, the appeal of country music for me, in relation to this thread, is its connection with the sources of soul/blues/funk; sorta like how Muddy Waters connects to his sources - that electrical connection, literal and figurative;

as for Gloria Lynn, if you have the Everests, very well might be Herman on organ and piano- listen for block chords (9ths on the bottom) -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

well, the appeal of country music for me, in relation to this thread, is its connection with the sources of soul/blues/funk; sorta like how Muddy Waters connects to his sources - that electrical connection, literal and figurative;

as for Gloria Lynn, if you have the Everests, very well might be Herman on organ and piano- listen for block chords (9ths on the bottom) -

Allan, I couldn't tell a 9th on the bottom if it was MY bottom it was biting

MG