VIDEO: Down Beat 1975 poll-winners' show

[JSngry]

I find it odd Jim your dorm mates didn't get the duet performance. Was it b/c at that time both Sonny and McCoy had expanded beyond what they were in the 60's (McCoy) and the 50's and 60's? (Sonny)

They had no problems w/McCoy. It was just Sonny that they couldn't figure out.

Most of those cats were into Trane and/or the "Elvin School" of tenors. To them, Sonny was "over" in '59 (and that stuff was looked at as "old fashioned" by them, "bebop"). Of course, none of the RCA material was in-print, the Impulse! sides were (and still are) in Trane's shadow, and the Milestone stuff was...not of interest as a result. The landscape of availability has dramatically changed the landscape of perception, believe me!

[Larry Kart]

Now, in the spirit of can't we all at least agree on something. Here's Sonny in 1965 with NHOP and Alan Dawson playing rhythm changes. Holy shit -- this makes a lot of other very good musicians sound like children.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=59...h&plindex=0

No shit...

It's like I said about Wayne in another thread, there's certain players that I get "friendly" with, and for them, I dig checking out wherever they decide to go, because that's what most people I dig do - they move around, always curious, not in a "I Can't Decide Who I Am" type way, but in an "Let Me See What THIS Is All About, It Might Appeal To Me In Some Form Or Fashion, Some Of It". And sometimes where they go ends up being a dead end, sometimes they end up looking but not touching, and sometimes they actually find somethings that open them up a little more to be somebody a little different than they were before.

As that pertains to Sonny, well, I remember Larry saying in one of our periodic Sonny Spats a few years ago that he didn't hear any joy in any of Sonny's later work (that's a paraphrase, iirc). And sorry, but that's just....not plausible in my mind. But ok, what can I say other than I hear it, he doesn't.

It's just that I find the notion that something like this marks "the beginning of the end" for Rollins is something that I find nothing short of absurd, true only if it's your definition of what "the end" is, and true only if that definition is formed entirely from what you think the world is.

Otherwise, there's been a lot of good-to-great music made by the man, and the end is nowhere in sight. Even if it ain't "like it was", it's still good-to-great (and yeah, some duds, too, like you say , you pays your money...) in the "like it is" world, and can't nobody do what Sonny Rollins does in that world but Sonny Rollins.

I don't remember saying that, and it doesn't sound like something I'd say, but.... I will say, though, that after a certain point (with exceptions) Sonny reminds of the smell of a falafel stand at the end of day three of a street fair.

[JSngry]

Is that a BAD thing?

[Larry Kart]

Is that a BAD thing?

If they don't change what they fry the falafel in, yes.

[JSngry]

If they don't change the oil often enough, it won't taste good.

[Mark Stryker]

Now, in the spirit of can't we all at least agree on something. Here's Sonny in 1965 with NHOP and Alan Dawson playing rhythm changes. Holy shit -- this makes a lot of other very good musicians sound like children.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=59...h&plindex=0

No shit...

It's like I said about Wayne in another thread, there's certain players that I get "friendly" with, and for them, I dig checking out wherever they decide to go, because that's what most people I dig do - they move around, always curious, not in a "I Can't Decide Who I Am" type way, but in an "Let Me See What THIS Is All About, It Might Appeal To Me In Some Form Or Fashion, Some Of It". And sometimes where they go ends up being a dead end, sometimes they end up looking but not touching, and sometimes they actually find somethings that open them up a little more to be somebody a little different than they were before.

As that pertains to Sonny, well, I remember Larry saying in one of our periodic Sonny Spats a few years ago that he didn't hear any joy in any of Sonny's later work (that's a paraphrase, iirc). And sorry, but that's just....not plausible in my mind. But ok, what can I say other than I hear it, he doesn't.

It's just that I find the notion that something like this marks "the beginning of the end" for Rollins is something that I find nothing short of absurd, true only if it's your definition of what "the end" is, and true only if that definition is formed entirely from what you think the world is.

Otherwise, there's been a lot of good-to-great music made by the man, and the end is nowhere in sight. Even if it ain't "like it was", it's still good-to-great (and yeah, some duds, too, like you say , you pays your money...) in the "like it is" world, and can't nobody do what Sonny Rollins does in that world but Sonny Rollins.

I'm right with you on every point here, even if we disagree on the quality of these particular '75 performances. And speaking of "Alfie," what I love about this '65 trio performance is that he's coming from the "Alfie" perspective in terms of sound, thematic improvising, articulation, rhythmic control and melodic rhyme, but he's still swinging the shit out of I Got Rhythm. In a way, I think it's similar in meaning to the what Miles' quintet with Wayne and Herbie were doing with "Stella" -- taking bebop fundamentals and stretching them in a way consistent with their own histories.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[Mark Stryker]

Concerning Sonny in 1965 with NHOP and Alan Dawson playing rhythm changes

By 1965 Sonny had mined this vein almost empty. I also find Dawson annoying till about 2/3 into the piece. Then he starts to relate to what Sonny is doing.

The most brilliant Oleo is found on Our Man In Jazz (RCA, 1962 live), IMO.

Well, this is certainly more straight-ahead than Our Man in Jazz but both are killin'.

[Soul Stream]

When masters like these reach a certain level, I think they play what they WANT to play...not what YOU might necessarily want to hear. How that stacks up in a "sports" kind of what to their past doesn't even matter to them. Music ain't a competition. I'm sure Sonny played EXACTLY what he wanted to play and Kirk played EXACTLY what he wanted to play and they could probably both give a shit as to how anyone perceived it.

[JSngry]

...there's still no way around the FACT Sonny ** is ** the greatest waste of healthy jass genius in the history of the music.

Not only is that stupid, it's wrong!

[DukeCity]

Most of those cats were into Trane and/or the "Elvin School" of tenors. To them, Sonny was "over" in '59 (and that stuff was looked at as "old fashioned" by them, "bebop"). Of course, none of the RCA material was in-print, the Impulse! sides were (and still are) in Trane's shadow, and the Milestone stuff was...not of interest as a result. The landscape of availability has dramatically changed the landscape of perception, believe me!

This idea was mentioned (again by JSngry in the recent discussion of Hank Mobley, re: availability or lack of the '50s Blue Note sessions). Interesting idea. I started buying jazz records in the early '80s, and there was TONS of unavailable stuff that I couldn't get my hands on/ ears around. Pretty different situation today...

[JSngry]

Well, mid-70s was when the "reissue boom" first began, but it wasn't until the format change to CD that the shit went nuts.

And yeah, what you don't know maybe can't hurt you, but it sure as hell can affect what your perceptions are!

One of the reasons why I "developed" differently than my peers was that I was always digging in the cutout bins, and not just to save money. It was a great way to find some even greater stuff that was long gone from the regular shelves. But most people I knew stayed away from the cutouts because it was all "old stuff that nobody wanted", if you know what I mean. But nowadays, that's the shit that everybody wants!

Hey.

Edited March 22, 2008 by JSngry

[DukeCity]

... I will say, though, that after a certain point (with exceptions) Sonny reminds of the smell of a falafel stand at the end of day three of a street fair.

That is a fantastic image! The fact that you've dealt with enough three-day-old falafel stand smells to have that as a reference point is a little troubling, though.

[MartyJazz]

:g :g :g :g :g

Y'all just don't get it.

Which is cool and all, don't get me wrong, and there's really no point "arguing" what are obviously irretrievably fixed positions, but... y'all just don't get it.

Somebody let me know when evolution is supposed to stop, ok? Lest I face it in my own life and decide to keep going instead of just....stopping...

I agree. I personally knew and occasionally hung out with Rahsaan in the early '70s, and caught both he and Rollins (separately, of course) often whenever either of them were playing in New York. And never at any time, however much I could enjoy a Rahsaan show (usually at the Vanguard), did I ever think, feel or otherwise believe that Rahsaan could outplay Rollins. Even though Rollins' recordings once he began his long association with Milestone are never (IMO) at the level of the great stuff recorded earlier, in person, he rarely left any doubt as to his pre-eminence on tenor, musically, technically, rhythmically, whatever, particularly during that '70s decade when I would see him at least once every year.

[JSngry]

"waste" might be slophouse word & my reverence for Sonny is but a cpl nothces down from yr own (but not that far)...

still, why isn't there Max & Sonny duo? for one of manymanymany things-ain't-what-they-coulda-been?

by which i mean, Sonny is turning out longer lived, physically healthier than anyone IMPORTANT since Duke himself. (waiting for someone to jump in w/Clark Terry, hardee har har). or, check that, very very IMPORTANT.

while psychology <---> musicology of any single performance is bunk (cf. our Art Pepper potlatch), the psychology of Sonny <---> discography HAS to be reckoned with & edc, sage & seer, has to reckon the last 35 years very very very disappointing.

many other people do too but it ain't bc ** i ** am afraid of the then future, i.e. Joe Henderson Milestone is much better than Sonny, tho' best of Sonny 1985-2005 >>> pro-forma Joe on '80s Blue Note or Verve.

You wanna go strictly on the records, as if "the music" is contained entirely therein, then yeah, I concede the point, and without prejudice.

But you and I both know that's not the case.

And besides, the "things-ain't-what-they-coulda-been" game is like masturbation in that the further things get out of hand, the more unlikely/improbable the possibilities become, and if they come true fine, but it still ain't gonna ever be that.

No, we don't have Sonny/Max, and believe me when I tell you that I've been making noise about getting that one going since that shindig @ the Carter White House Lawn (remember that?). But oh well. Shit happens. And doesn't.

More than anything else though, what I want to know is, if people are "disappointed" by the outcome (and again, if "the records" are all you got to go by, you're excused from the room), just what the hell are you looking for? An "exciting sense of discovery" when pretty much everything the guy was going to discover he had discovered by 1969? Explain to me how that's gonna work, ok? You want him to become an "intrepid explorer", somebody who keeps going on and on and on outwards/inwards like Jimmy Giuffre? That's a nice wish, but c'mon, get real about that happening. It couldn't, therefore it shouldn't, and it didn't. Can't fight Sydney Hall, dig? You want him to become an "Elder Statesman"? Hey, Jimmy Heath's got that gig already, and you see what that's worth. You want to believe that what he does is still a..... relevant pursuit to society at large, that hey boys and girls, practice your changes and you TOO can be a bad motherfucker just like Sonny Rollins? In 1948, yeah. In 1958, HELL yeah. In 1968, still hell yeah. But in 1978?, 1988? 1998? 2008? Going, going....

No, it doesn't matter to society at large. The whole "soloist w/rhythm section" thing doesn't matter any more outside of those who haven't figured out yet that no matter where they go, it's already been gotten to, bigger, badder, and better. The only reason that Sonny Rollins still matters is because He Is Sonny Rollins, and his command of the instrument remains second to none, and that, combined with his life experience, allows him to, when he feels like it, kick us all in the ass with a...LARGENESS of spirit that we most all can use in a pretty fundamental way.That's it - a largeness of spirit in a world where any size of spirit is a target for extermination. Fuck all the "baggage", what we need is SPIRIT, and Sonny Rollins still has it.

Yeah, it's a drag that so many of the records haven't been all we'd like them to be. But some of them have, and some of them give us enough of an appetizer to let us know that "it" is still alive somewhere. That's how it's been, and if it ain't all it "could" have been, well, hey. Take a look at this:

Yeah, it's an old man (I said earlier that the end was nowhere in sight, but that's a lie...), and no, it doesn't really hit that "zone", but dammit, there's still life in that sound, big BIG bunches of life, and it's a spirit that, not at all unlike later Louis Armstrong, might not withstand "critical scrutiny" or some such, but when you take it to the streets for some everyday application, it'll get you a lot farther than a bunch of stuff that does. That shit DANCES, and if you can't dance through at least some of life (or even worse, if you don't want to dance through some part of life), then... fine. but I can so NOT relate. Sue me.

I understand that "the records" are what matters to most people, and ok, hey, you got me on that one (mostly). But otherwise... uh-uh.

[medjuck]

Anyone want to elaborate about the "fun" of 70s jazz? I stopped buying many contemporary records after Trane died and Miles went electric. Most of my purchases in the 70s were of records made before I was born (exceptions being new works by Mingus, Gil Evans and of course Ellington). So I'm curious as to what I missed out on.

[Christiern]

I have always regarded Archie Shepp as a player of limited importance.

[Joe G]

Just want to say that I've enjoyed reading this thread, and enjoyed the HELL outta the clips! Thanks!

[JSngry]

Anyone want to elaborate about the "fun" of 70s jazz? I stopped buying many contemporary records after Trane died and Miles went electric. Most of my purchases in the 70s were of records made before I was born (exceptions being new works by Mingus, Gil Evans and of course Ellington). So I'm curious as to what I missed out on.

Nothing. Nothing at all. People started dieing and using electric instruments and messing around outside the lines, shit like that. It was a mess. You were right to ignore it all.

[JSngry]

NOT FUN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ed-Dx9MMWE

[clifford_thornton]

Thanks for posting all this stuff, JS (and enjoying Parkertown's contrib as well) -

Not sure how I feel about the Rollins/McCoy duo... just not sure.

[analogak]

Anyone want to elaborate about the "fun" of 70s jazz? I stopped buying many contemporary records after Trane died and Miles went electric. Most of my purchases in the 70s were of records made before I was born (exceptions being new works by Mingus, Gil Evans and of course Ellington). So I'm curious as to what I missed out on.

duck, it sounds like the problem was with you and not with the music.

[flat5]

Quote:

Take a look at this:

Unquote

Sonny sounds like he's been listening to Lester Young for a week!

I never heard him sound so much like Lester. Some of the lines and phrasing.

Interesting.

[JSngry]

Call me crazy, but I think it was kinda fun how you could take what is basically a jazz chord progression, turn it into a moody R&B vamp, add some vocals w/some with some nebulous lyrics that could go as deep or as shallow as you wanted/needed then to be, put it in a really good pocket, have it turn into an R&B hit, and then, right at the end, throw in a tenor solo that is a equal parts Joe Henderson & Grover Washington.

i.e. Searchin'

Now, for some this is sure to be just More Pop Music. But knowing enough about Pop music(s), who they get made, what they "mean" and what they "convey" in both content and production, I don't think so. This is kinda...sneaky, and in a very good way, I think. And yeah, it sold quite well.

So, you had Ra & you had Roy Ayers both doing relatively ok careerwise, and nobody questioned the presence of either being where they were doing what they were doing - it was obvious. In between that, you had all sorts of other things going on, some horrible, some just fine, some "experiments", some hardcore standing pat, and everything in between in terms of content, intent, and success.

If that wasn't fun, then I've never had any fun.

And this is DEFINITELY NOT FUN.

Edited March 23, 2008 by JSngry

[AllenLowe]

"When masters like these reach a certain level, I think they play what they WANT to play...not what YOU might necessarily want to hear. How that stacks up in a "sports" kind of what to their past doesn't even matter to them. Music ain't a competition. I'm sure Sonny played EXACTLY what he wanted to play and Kirk played EXACTLY what he wanted to play and they could probably both give a shit as to how anyone perceived it."

this is as irrelevant as the lawyer's speech at the end of Caine Mutiny -

I saw the Milestones all star tour (which is what that clip was) at the time - an overcrowded, musically boring waste of time - and Sonny was terrible -

I hate to say, but sometimes the emperor remains naked for a long period of time -

[JSngry]

I saw the Milestones all star tour (which is what that clip was) at the time -

No Allen, that clip was from the 1975 Down Beat Poll Winners Show from PBS...

But thanks for paying attention anyway!