Charlie Rouse

[AllenLowe]

dont know but weeny appears to be turning green

[Kalo]

Anyone looking for Rouse leader dates could do worse than the two Uptown dates available from me for $15 each ($25 for the pair), postpaid in North America. As usual, reduced postage elsewhere.

Social Call is quite good, but Soul Mates is a classic.

Agreed!

[mrjazzman]

I liked Rouse with Monk. I mean Monk had many better saxophonists through the years before Rouse: Johnny Griffin, Sonny Rollins, Sahib Shihab, Danny Quebec West, Coltrane, Harold Land, Lucky Thompson, Gigi Gryce, among others. But I think Rouse brought something unique to Monk's band. He brought an understanding to the table. Rouse understood the inner mechanics of the music. He knew the ins and outs. I did like Rollins with Monk. I thought they were a good match, but again, Rouse just could really nail these difficult compositions. Rouse's best playing, in my opinion, was on "Straight, No Chaser," which in opinion was this quartet's best effort.

I definitely would have liked to have heard Phil Woods, Johnny Griffin, Coltrane, Rollins, and Harold Land do more work with Monk, but if I had to pick any of them it would be Rollins.

I'd disagree stronlgy that all (I almost want to say ANY) of these saxophonists are "better" than Chariie Rouse!

I STRONGLY agree with your disagreement................

[MomsMobley]

Rouse is hack-- a moderately "talented," if that, "pro" who made the gigs. Big deal. A comprehensive list of inspired Rouse solos with Monk follows:

_______________

_______________

_______________

etc etc

The guy was a zero (rhymes with NULLITY, not little rooty tooty or jackie-ing) and the fact that was can all name 4-5-6-7 others who rocked Monk hard(er) is evidence, as well as numerous non-Monk covers where, if one does miss the pianist some, NOBODY misses... Charlie Rouse? Please.

There is NO-- repeat NO-- Monk session elevated by Rouse's presence; no solo that enriches the composition, etc.

I dare anyone listen to "Monk In Tokyo," to name one of way too many time-killing dates and explain what the fuck Rouse was doing besides filling space before they could all get paid?

That Rouse is such an exemplar (if not archetype) of the well-meaning jazz blowhard that's effectively killed the genre both mainstream is eloquent testimony of self-obsolescence and that's about it.

Charlie Rouse: the 434th most interesting black tenor player of the years 1956-1968?

Top 1000 counting all ethnicities/genres? Even ** that ** might be generous.

That the Uptown records are listenable have to do with the groups not Rouse and I'll take ** every ** Ira Sullivan record of any Charlie Rouse.

I'm too tired to go into much detail here. But I just got done wathcing the free DVD that came with the Monk at the Olympia CD. It's the classic footage, but I've never seen the whole thing. What really jumped out at me, beyond the fact that the whole band is so cohesive, is that Charlie Rouse really commands the music.

He's such a vital part of the Monk package that I have a hard time imagining the band without him. Griffin and Coltrane were great interpreters of Monk's music. But Rouse really fit like a glove. He didn't seem to interpret Monk's music...He WAS Monk's music.

...and NO band ever swung harder than this one.

Edited November 19, 2011 by MomsMobley

[Leeway]

What brought this on?

[johnlitweiler]

First time I heard Monk was the quartet w/Rouse, Dunlop, and (I think) Ore - that was 1961 and in the subsequent 50 years I may never heard anyone swing so much as Monk on those nights. Monk really stretched out that time, Rouse played short solos; in 1962 Rouse was more at ease, stretched out, Monk played short solos.

At any given time Monk apparently had a small repertoire, maybe a couple dozen songs. Some of the interest, or strength, of the "Monk's Dream" LP was that Rouse seemed to be learning some of the songs and his solos were theme variations. In time, as he knew the songs better, he would improvise on the changes. The whole quartet swings so fine in those It Club and Italy-France Riverside concert LPs.

Monk did not comp, any more than Ellington or Basie ever comped. He played orchestra backgrounds, on the piano, to his soloists.

Hank Mobley said he only played w/Monk for two weeks but he thought he played Monk's music very well. I believe it.

It's good that Rouse and Griffin, for the rest of their lives after leaving Monk, continued to play Monk songs.

[jazzbo]

What brought this on?

I think Clem is trying to steal the resident Contrarian title back from David.

[Leeway]

What brought this on?

I think Clem is trying to steal the resident Contrarian title back from David.

I think he's ahead on points

[MomsMobley]

apologies for earlier typos. two things got me started again on Rouse--

1) "Think of One" master + alt w/ J. Watkins, S. Rollins, P. Heath, W. Jones

2) "Monk In Tokyo"

mind you, i have had all Columbia Monk for decades and though I liked much of it, as soon as I could listen critically I realized Rouse was... off? The more you listen, however, the more you realize he kinda sucks. More than kinda, in fact, given the context: he does NOTHING but stir the air with "Monk-ish" muzak and there is NO worse contemporary "interpreter" (a word that gives Rouse too much credit) of TSM. (I once heard Wynton's Monk "tribute" in a record store and until an intellectual nullity like Joe Lovano or an insipid whore like Bill Frisell get to it, it remains "non-pareil.")

THAT-- yes, Monk himself comes in swinging hard is true-- if you make it that far! AND-- what other choice did he have? Rouse kills-- deadens that is, puts to sleep-- EVERY solo, EVERY song. In that sense Monk is doubly shrewd-- not only is Rouse "reliable" (important) but he makes everyone sound better by lowering the overall standard at a time when the boss' interest in his own work was flagging.

And yes, EVERYONE should grow up already and admit that in this case, hep consensus was correct and 95% of the Columbia material represents a diminution of Monk's powers and that, if Charlie Rouse never existed, our common adulation of Monk would remain as great.

As it stands, nearly the only later Monk I can stand is solo or big band.

Renaissance for a Record Industry: instead of "extended" versions of "It Club," "Jazz Workshop" etc how about CONDENSED editions-- Music Minus One, the absent one being the futile finger flapper with the insufferable tone... Rouse.

[jazzbo]

I don't want to get into an argument or contest because I already know who's dick is bigger, but I really like Rouse with Monk on Riverside and Columbia and bootlegs. I think there's a great contrast between Rouse's exposition of the melodies and Monk's, and they both benefit so much from the swinging bass and drums. Some of my favorite music, some of the first wave of jazz recordings that I got deep into. it's cool if you don't dig him, and it never surprises me that you pontificate against something I'm for.

Going to put on Underground.

[JSngry]

A lot of "energy" being spent on Rouse, when the real "problem" with later Monk was Ben Riley. In my opinion.

Rouse + Frankie Dunlop = a neat little wind-up toy. You can't watch it for long, but you can definitely watch it often, and never get tired of it.

Rouse + Ben Riley = uh...yeah. That.

Exceptions to both exist aplenty, but really, Rouse had charms and skills as well as annoyances, and at this point, it's over and done with, so...proceed accordingly.

[JSngry]

A few more "thoughts" -

Rouse was damn near always good for a solid-or-(often)better two, sometimes three choruses. After that (and there almost always was), well...

Two of the most intuitively brilliant solo-graspings of Monk's logic is on the original "Jackie-ing". Thad Jones and...Charlie Rouse. That tune quirks out in the second eight, especially in bar 11, but they both sail and/or roll right through it. So say what you want about Rouse's "wearing well", one strength that he did have is a grasp of the fundamental logic of the music. Maybe not the most inspired...expounder of that logic, but one could do far worse than to study his melodic statements and first chorus or two on pretty much any Monk side he's on. Far worse. So credit where it's due, and all that.

[Gheorghe]

I think, Rouse was so close to Monk, he even sounds "Monkish" on stuff that has no link to Monk at all. Listen to "Bossa Nova Bacchanal", it´s kind of "Monkish" latin. Very interesting.

Rouse had his individual sound and phrasing even before he joined Monk. I like his playing on the Tadd Dameron-Fats Navarro sessions very much.

[jeffcrom]

I dunno, Moms. In your world, all musicians are either geniuses or hacks. That's not a world I recognize.

It's hard to argue with JSngry's brief assessment of Rouse's strengths and weaknesses. (Except maybe the Ben Riley part).

The fact is that from 1959 on, Rouse was the saxophonist Monk had. I'm not willing to limit my Monk listening to before 1959 and after 1970 just because Rouse wasn't Coltrane or Sonny Rollins. That being said, I've never really had any desire to explore Rouse beyond the confines of Monk's music - although the Rouse/Steve Lacy duet version of "Ask Me Now" is a beautiful thing.

[A Lark Ascending]

Evidence for the defence:

[MomsMobley]

ah but Jeff is not that how it nearly is? there's nothing wrong with being gigging musician, a section player, a performer of trauermusik-- but would you ever say Rouse was even half the musician Robin Trower? is such speculation what our cratered culture of affluence has led us to?

I'm staying out of the drums thing though yes Ben Riley has issues but the point is, contrary to the original poster, Rouse doesn't "make" Monk's music in any way except nearly fucking intolerable. And ** NO ** other contemporary of Monk's did that, that I'm aware of. I'm sure some ** did **, natch, but I haven't heard those records or tapes. But the scarcity of their suck isn't reason to NOT recognize Rouse brings ** nothing ** unique to the table but undemanding reliability (which ** is ** important, professionally, esp. given the Monk's matrix of 'issues.')

had i more time and razor blades i could edit Monk session tapes-- remove Rouse-- 'punch in' in solos by x, y, z over whatever Monk auto-comping-- and there we are-- no need to suffer, no need to pretend.

Charlie Rouse is the greatest symptom of Monk's decline as a composer, conceptualist.

That sometimes, in a flash of self-recrimination, he blazed the fuck out of that self-inflicted musical torpor ** can ** briefly reaffirm one's faith in Our Hero but then comes another cloud of goddamn Charlie Rouse spittle--

don't get any on you, please!!

there is no antidote.

Lark-- Mal can make almost anyone "listenable," dramatically, because you wanna hear more Mal and he teases you (something Rouse-- and dreary auto-tooter Sonny Stitt are nearly incapable of-- but you get way more bounce to Curtis Counce!

compare Buell Niedlinger "Jackie-Ing" to any version with Rouse and tell me who got it better.

I dunno, Moms. In your world, all musicians are either geniuses or hacks. That's not a world I recognize.

It's hard to argue with JSngry's brief assessment of Rouse's strengths and weaknesses. (Except maybe the Ben Riley part).

The fact is that from 1959 on, Rouse was the saxophonist Monk had. I'm not willing to limit my Monk listening to before 1959 and after 1970 just because Rouse wasn't Coltrane or Sonny Rollins. That being said, I've never really had any desire to explore Rouse beyond the confines of Monk's music - although the Rouse/Steve Lacy duet version of "Ask Me Now" is a beautiful thing.

[JSngry]

Rouse doesn't "make" Monk's music in any way except nearly fucking intolerable.

Wrong. Rouse brought a very distinct timbre and phrasing to the heads that did "make" Monk's performances of the time quite identifiable ((it was the first and only real band sound that Monk ever had) and fun (especial w/Dunlap, and if you don't look at Rouse/Dunlap vs Rouse/Riley, you're not looking at band sound & chemistry and how it all works together, you're just harping on one guy for the sake of harping on one guy).

That Rouse didn't sustain that identity fun into the 8th or 12th or 54th chorus is equally true, but if you acknowledge one, you really should acknowledge the other if your goal is any sort of objective realization.

[A Lark Ascending]

Lark-- Mal can make...

And when did we get on first name terms? It's Mr. Ascending to you!!!

Edited November 20, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[JSngry]

I dunno, Moms. In your world, all musicians are either geniuses or hacks. That's not a world I recognize.

Yeah, I don't either.

ah but Jeff is not that how it nearly is?

It depends on where you are. If you're on the consumer end of history, hell, it's easy to play The Emperor Of History and be Pleased or Displeased. or You were great, you live, or you were a hack, you die. A delightfully irresponsibly game of caprice, that is, and one that encourages ignorance just as much as the Circus Of Everything's Great.

Otherwise, it's seldom that cut and dried, unless the object of the game is to cut off the peak of a mountain to put on display somewhere where people have never seen mountains and tell them that this was the only part that ever mattered, which in time leased to the poor saps believing that this was the mountain.

[.:.impossible]

I hadn't thought too much about this, but Jim brings up an interesting point. How many choruses do you need to be able to remain inventive until you become a second or third tier jazz musician?

I actually have a fairly high regard for Charlie Rouse, and I'll need to listen very closely once I get home tonight, based on his opening on "Locomotive" from STRAIGHT NO CHASER. My memory is that it sounds as if he has just jumped forward at me and the band really engages there.

I'll he back to you. Promise. Until then, do absolutely nothing.

[Larry Kart]

Pre-Monk Rouse could be quite tasty/soulful/inventive. Hear him on Louis Smith's "Smithville" and his own "Takin' Care of Business." About Rouse with Monk, I pretty much agree with Moms but without the hyperbole. The typical Rouse solo with Monk was like eating cardboard, though there were exceptions. Also, IIRC he played quite well on one of the albums (probably the first) that he made with the post-Monk tribute band he had with (I think) Kenny Barron, Buster Williams, and Ben Riley. To me, all that suggests that for the lick- and groove-oriented Rouse, actually playing with Monk usually cut across the grain of what he could do best.

[JSngry]

Pre-Monk Rouse could be quite tasty/soulful/inventive.

The album he cut w/Quinichette fits that bill as well.

[Leeway]

I have no interest in defending Rouse, who, without his Monk connection, would be a footnote in jazz. However, if what Moms says is true, what does that say about Monk? For Monk to keep the 434th worst sax player around for years in his band, playing cardboard solos, and hack work licks, does not reflect all that well on Monk, does it?

Moms hints at a Monk in decline, but also notes that Monk could come in with brilliant playing/interpretation when he wanted/needed to. There is no doubt that the period of Monk's greatest artistic ferment was already over by the time Rouse showed up. But is Rouse's presence the signal that Monk was finished? A sort of deliberate covering over by Monk of the earlier brilliance? Otherwise it makes no sense for these two wildly disparate figures to form a partnership. Perhaps Rouse lowered the bar and Monk found that convenient. Or perhaps Rouse was the dull background against which Monk could shine brightly, without having to fight for it. Sonny Rollins has done something similar to that these last several decades. Anyway, I think this argument about Rouse is also something of an argument about Monk too.

[Joe]

Add ot the list of fine / "better" Rouse performances (IMO)... Sonny Clark's LEAPIN' AND LOPIN'.

I agree that part of this issue with Rouse's work with Monk has to do with his being given too space / time to solo, and often without any musical interaction from the pianist.

[six string]

(To no one in particular)Well at least you could say that Rouse probably learned a lot from Monk. It would have been nice to have been so lucky to play with T until he died. I like the Monk albums with Rouse though my favorite albums are Pre-Columbia (not pre-columbian)