Blindfold Test #3 // ANSWERS...

[Jim R]

Here goes...

First of all, I wish I had time to go through everyone’s posts and respond to every interesting comment in every post. There were a lot of them! Instead, maybe you guys can help me out in the following discussion phase by comparing your own initial reactions to these answers and pointing out anything you now find interesting or surprising (and of course respond to any of my comments below, in italics).

1. Vince Guaraldi - Samba de orfeu (Luiz Bonfa) - from “Cast Your Fate To The Wind (Jazz Impressions Of Black Orpheus)” (Fantasy)

Vince Guaraldi (p), Monty Budwig (b ), Colin Bailey (d). Recorded 1962

When I think of the word “swinging”, this track is one of the first things that comes to mind for me. I wish Guaraldi had recorded more, and gotten more attention over the years beyond the connection with the “Peanuts” soundtracks (which I enjoyed too).

2. Lem Winchester - Why don’t they understand (Henderson / Fishman) - from “With Feeling” (Moodsville)

Lem Winchester (vib), Richard Wyands (p), George Duvivier (b ), Roy Haynes (d). Recorded 1960

Quite a few people said this tune sounded familiar... and suggested it could be a standard. I wonder... I had never heard of the song until I got this CD, but a little research suggests that this was a country (!) hit back in the late 50’s, for a guy named George Hamilton IV. Not the actor with the ridiculously permanent tan, I presume. Petula “Downtown” Clark also recorded it, apparently. I like the tune, but my main purpose was just to sneak in a nice example of Lem’s playing, and this is from my favorite Winchester album.

3. Lee Morgan - Bess (Lee Morgan) - from “Here's Lee Morgan” (Vee Jay)

Lee Morgan (tpt), Clifford Jordan (ts), Wynton Kelly (p), Paul Chambers (b ), Art Blakey (d). Recorded 1960

I’ve always liked this tune, and since it doesn’t get mentioned very often in Lee Morgan threads, I thought I’d take the opportunity to share it. It also features the twist of the muted trumpet; a somewhat undersung tenor man whose distinctive sound I love; and a rhythm section to die for (even if Blakey is a bit out of his normal “volcano” element on this ).

4. Louis Stewart - The dolphin (Luiz Eça) - from “String Time” (Villa)

Louis Stewart (g), Knut Mikalsen (rhythm g), Terje Venaas (b ), Ole Jacob Hansen (d). Recorded 1988

I’ve written about this one on the boards a few times. This is a unique recording. First of all, you have an (albeit acclaimed in hardcore jazz guitar circles) obscure Irish bebop guitarist playing a Brazilian piece with a group of Norwegian musicians- recording IN NORWAY. Let’s face it, that might have been a recipe for disaster, instead this is one of my favorite solos in the history of jazz on the guitar. This tune is a bitch to solo on- perhaps some of you musicians who have tried playing it might agree on that. Not only does Louis fluently navigate the changes, but he does it with great style and cohesiveness, surpassing even the Getz and Bill Evans versions, IMO.

5. Benny Golson - How am I to know (Jack King / Dorothy Parker) - from “Turning Point” (Mercury)

Benny Golson (ts), Wynton Kelly (p), Paul Chambers (b ), Jimmy Cobb (d). Recorded 1962

Another player who doesn’t get enough props, IMO. He gets them for his composing, but not so much for his playing. The cat had/has his own thing, his own sound, and to me it’s always been exhilarating. Relatively obscure album (on CD from Japan only)

6. Eddie Higgins - Favela (aka “O morro nao tem vez”) (Antonio Carlos Jobim) - from “Live at the Van Dyke Cafe” (Soyka - Wilner)

Eddie Higgins (p), Don Wilner (b ). Recorded 1999

E.H. is one of the most versatile and talented jazz piano veterans out there. He’s another relatively low-profile guy (just like Louis Stewart), but it’s worth it to seek out his work. Hopefully, everybody will soon get a chance to read Dan Gould’s interview/blindfold test with Eddie from this past Spring (including the interesting story about Eddie declining the offer to join the group of a certain legendary jazz leader). BTW, the Van Dyke Cafe is in Miami, so maybe there was some sort of Florida Kharma going on with those Nat Adderley quotes...

7. Bill Mays / Ed Bickert - Sometime ago (Sergio Mihanovich) - from “Bill Mays / Ed Bickert” (Concord)

Ed Bickert (g), Bill Mays (p). Recorded 1994

Ed Bickert... another low profile, under-appreciated master, in this case, from Canada. I really love this tune, and really love this performance of it, and was kind of curious to see how many people knew the song. Bickert’s intro on this just kills me. His style and sound are akin to Jim Hall as some suggested, but his tone is generally brighter (he uses a Fender Telecaster- a solidbody guitar, BTW), and his playing is less often dissonant, less “progressive” than Hall’s, and generally a little more lyrical, I think. For those who dig the Desmond/Hall Mosaic set, and who enjoyed this, you will want to look for Bickert’s 1970’s work with Desmond on various labels (A&M/Verve; CTI; Telarc). Personally, I like these even better than Desmond’s collaberations with Hall.

8. Harry Allen - Chega de saudade (aka “No more blues”) (Antonio Carlos Jobim / Vinicius de Moraes) - from “Eu Nao Quero Dançar (I Won't Dance)” (RCA Victor)

Harry Allen (ts), Larry Goldings (p), Dori Caymmi (ac g), Joe Cohn (el g), Dennis Irwin (b ), Duduka Da Fonseca (perc), Maucha Adnet (voc). Recorded 1997

The classic Bossa Nova anthem that Joao Gilberto made famous in Brazil. Not my favorite version, but I wanted to add some mystery as well as a jazz element. This recording is relatively new to me, as is Harry Allen. This may not even be the best cut on the CD, which is not just any “jazzman goes Brazilian” CD. Allen really knows this music, and the supporting cast here (a member of Brazil’s legendary Caymmi family; a great Brazilian percussionist; and a vocalist who was in Jobim’s “Banda Nova”) is the real deal. Larry Goldings on piano (he did a Brazilian CD on organ- “Caminhos Cruzados”, which is excellent). Guitarist Joe Cohn is the son of tenor great Al Cohn, BTW.

9. Frank Strozier - Just think it over (Frank Strozier) - from “Long Night” (Jazzland / Milestone)

Frank Strozier (as), George Coleman (ts), Pat Patrick (bs), Chris Anderson (p), Bill Lee (b ), Walter Perkins (d). Recorded 1961

I’ve recently become more and more of a Strozier fan, and this track seemed to fit in nicely with some of my other jazz choices. Nice piece of writing from Strozier, I thought.

10. Barney Kessel - Aquarela do Brasil (aka “Brazil”) (Ary Barroso) - from “Solo” (Concord)

Barney Kessel (g). Recorded 1981

Another classic 20th century Brazilian composition (by one of their seminal composers). Kessel was a true giant on his instrument. For some reason, his name just doesn’t come up that often in our jazz guitar discussion threads (even when it focuses on “legends” of the instrument). Even Wes was highly influenced by Kessel, who was a primary bridge early on between Charlie Christian and the modern jazz that followed. This track is a good- if brief- example of his versatility, flair, chordal mastery, and pure musicality. A fine example of a guitarist who didn’t think in terms of guitaristics, but making good music.

11. Hampton Hawes - Hamp’s blues (“Black Forest”? *) (Hampton Hawes) - from “Hamp’s Piano” (Saba/MPS)

Hampton Hawes (p), Eberhard Weber (b ). [Klaus Weiss (d) lays out on this track]. Recorded 1967

* This tune is labeled as “Hamp’s Blues” on Saba album (NOT the same as the “Hamp’s Blues” he recorded for Contemporary). I also have another version of the tune (on a european jazz guitar album) where it’s labeled as “Hamp’s Blues”; This same tune is labeled as “Black Forest” on Hawes’ Black Lion release BLUES FOR BUD (recorded 4 months after the Saba version). The Saba album includes a track titled “Black Forest Blues”, but that’s yet another composition. So... ??? (discographers’ nightmare ).

Another relatively obscure album, only available on CD via Japan. Hawes could play pretty with the best of them, while always retaining that deep, earthy soulfulness and commitment to the blues. This track gives us a little of both, which I find very appealing.

12. Lalo Schifrin - Samba para dos (Lalo Schifrin) - from “Bossa Nova Groove” (Ubatuqui CD); Originally released under Eddie Harris’ name as “Bossa Nova” (Vee Jay 3034)

Lalo Schifrin (p), Eddie Harris (ts), Jimmy Raney (g), Art Davis (b ), Chuck Lampkin (d), Osvaldo Cigno (pandeiro), Jack Del Rio (cabaca). Recorded 1962

Okay, this was kind of off the wall, I’ll admit. This is somewhat of a curiosity, an Argentinian pianist and a group of (primarily) U.S. jazzmen in a Brazilian romp... and I couldn’t resist the idea of giving folks a sample of Eddie Harris in this sort of setting to see if he was recognizable. He’s even more recognizable (IMO) on some of the other cuts on this CD, but I see I couldn’t fool some of you!

13. Joshua Breakstone - I mean you (Thelonious Monk) - from “Let’s Call This Monk” (Double Time)

Joshua Breakstone (g), Dennis Irwin (b ), Mickey Roker (d). Recorded 1996

I’ve been a fan of Breakstone since about 1984, and he has always struck me as a unique voice in mainstream guitar (the dark tone along with a distinctive bebop single-string style become unmistakable with repeated listening and exploring of his catalog). If you look at who he’s gotten as sidemen on his LP’s/CD’s (Barry Harris, Kenny Barron, Pepper Adams, Jimmy Knepper, Jack McDuff, Al Harewood, etc), you know the cat is doing something right. Josh has done tributes to Monk, Bud Powell, Wes, Grant Green, The Beatles and The Ventures! I hear he’s very big in Japan...

14. Sarah Vaughan - Chovendo na roseira (aka “Double rainbow”) (Antonio Carlos Jobim) - from “Copacabana” (Pablo)

Sarah Vaughan (voc), Helio Delmiro (g) (others unidentified). Recorded 1979

I knew this was a risk, with the widespread distaste for jazz vocalists on the board. Sarah’s voice was getting WAY down there in her later years, and no, this isn’t the best example of her jazz singing (or of this great Jobim composition), but I love this recording anyway. Helio Delmiro is fun on this, at least for me. Sarah recorded three Brazilian albums between ‘77 and ‘87- two on Pablo and one on CBS. Uniformly excellent, IMO.

15. Dexter Gordon - Tivoli (Dexter Gordon) - from “The Other Side Of Round Midnight” (Blue Note)

Dexter Gordon (ss), Palle Mikkelborg (tpt), Cedar Walton (p), Mads Vinding (b ), Billy Higgins (d). Recorded 1985

A dirty trick, yes, but a good test for the ears. Mr. Sangrey said it beautifully. Go back and read Jim’s post again, if you don’t recall what he said about this track. Oh- BTW, the fade-out was not my doing. That’s the way it occurs on the CD, and it’s regrettable, as I would have loved to hear more.

16. Jack Wilson - The good life (Distel / Reardon) - from “The Two Sides Of Jack Wilson (Atlantic)

Jack Wilson (p), Leroy Vinnegar (b ), Philly Joe Jones (d). Recorded 1964

After Dan had used an “uncharacteristic” Jack Wilson track on his test, I thought I’d squeeze (literally ) another Wilson track onto my disc. One of my favorite ballads, and an interesting performance by one of my favorite pianists.

This was a great way to share some of my favorite music, and I hope that some of you discovered something new to enjoy. Thanks to everyone who participated, whether or not you felt “successful” at solving the mysteries. I really respect everyone’s efforts and contributions. Special thanks to Tom Storer, Ray “RDK” Kolasa, and everyone else who burned and forwarded discs (you know who you are). Last but NOT least, thanks to Dan Gould for the shoulder-tap for test #3 leadership, and for his continuing logistical support and behind-the-scenes problem solving.

[Jim R]

Come on... it wasn't THAT boring, was it?

[Joe]

I can hardly believe I actually was right re: the pianist on #11.

And, FWIW, Bickert still sounds much more like Raney than Hall to me.

Edited October 28, 2003 by Joe

[Jim R]

FWIW, Bickert still sounds much more like Raney than Hall to me.

Interesting. Elaborate if you'd care to, Joe. Unless you're talking more about tone, I might disagree, only because Bickert tends to emphasize chordal playing (even in his solos) more than Raney. He also is more relaxed/legato than either Raney or Hall, but perhaps more like Hall in that sense. (Generalizing here, of course)

[Joe]

Defintely tone. Initially, I thought the guitarist on #7 was picking his notes a little more robustly than Jim Hall does. Though Raney often sounds a little "sharper" to me than Bickert. Also, some of the little forays into harmonic ambiguity made me think of Raney.

I have DAYS GONE BY, the Sackville Ed Bickert / Sonny Greenwich quartet date, and he sounds there much less like a guy filling in for Jim Hall in the Paul Desmond Quartet.

But, hey, I mistook Dexter Gordon for Jane Ira Bloom, so best consider the source from here on in!

Edited October 28, 2003 by Joe

[RDK]

Again, Jim - great disc! This was a very interesting and somewhat surprising selection of tunes. I missed many more than I got right, and I was shocked by a couple of the answers. I am extremely gratified, however, to have thought that track 8 was *not* by Getz, though it sounded so much like him. I guess I'm not as sucky at this as I thought. B)

I've been away most of the last week, laid up with the flu and computerless, and I've only started reading the rest of the disc #3 discussion thread - but I just had to skip ahead to the answers. There are more than a few of these artists who are new to me, and a few that i definitely have to check out.

Ray

[A Lark Ascending]

That was a great disc that I will be keeping...and using the answers for liner notes!

Special thanks for reconnecting me with Louis Stewart. I bought 'Overdrive' on Saturday as a result of track 4 and now have my eyes on some of those Jardis discs.

The thing I like about these Blindfold discs is that they are like radio ought to be!

[Jim R]

Joe, I hear you. BTW, you're too modest.

Ray, some folks may not have nailed 11 out of 16 (like one of our esteemed colleagues did), but everybody had their clever comments and interesting insights. Like I said at the top, I wish I had time to address every one of 'em. At any rate, if you're like me, you gotta be proud of those "little victories"!

Bev, I'm glad to hear about your getting reacquainted with Louis. OVERDRIVE (for those who aren't familiar with it) is dynamite, IMO. A live trio date where Louis really cuts loose and displays his chops in his most comfortable setting- BEBOP. That CD is one where a Pat Martino comparison would be more accurate, I think, although in no way do those two players sound the same. They both have supreme flatpicking chops- that's the primary similarity. Louis is more versatile than Pat, and that's not to knock Pat. Louis' style includes more variety, including those amazing Wes-like chordal solos. At any rate, this Villa CD (now OOP) is more laid back overall, and for those of you who dug this version of "The Dolphin", I hope you'll return to it from time to time. I've had this for 10 years, and I like it more now than I ever have.

[JSngry]

So what's the deal with Jack Wilson and these cuts that match the timing of somebody elses's performance of the same tune? Have we uncovered a NEW type of evil here?

Seriously, who the hell let Leroy Vinnegar(!) get away with playing so far out of tume? I'm actually relieved that it's not an Ahmad Jamal cut. Couldn't imagine Jamal letting something like that slide. But it does show you the pervasiveness of the Jamal/Red Garland esthetic in it's time, how that was "the way to play" for a lot of players.

Who is Don Wilner? Any relation to Hal?

[A Lark Ascending]

'The Dolphin' is indeed a glorious tune. I know it from a great Stan Tracey version.

[Jim R]

 

JSngry said:

So what's the deal with Jack Wilson and these cuts that match the timing of somebody elses's performance of the same tune? Have we uncovered a NEW type of evil here?

 

Seriously, who the hell let Leroy Vinnegar(!) get away with playing so far out of tume? I'm actually relieved that it's not an Ahmad Jamal cut. Couldn't imagine Jamal letting something like that slide. But it does show you the pervasiveness of the Jamal/Red Garland esthetic in it's time, how that was "the way to play" for a lot of players.

 

Who is Don Wilner? Any relation to Hal?

You wanna see EVIL? If I ever get to do another test, you're not getting your disc for at least a MONTH after everybody else, Sangrey!! (Of course, with YOUR intuitive powers, you probably already know what pieces I would select, and possibly the sequence I would record them in! )

 

Don Wilner- Musical director at Miami's Van Dyke Cafe; Native of NY (C?); Came to Florida to study classical music at the U. of Miami (holds a doctorate); Performs with local orchestras, but is developing as a jazz bassist.

 

Not sure about any connection with Hal W. My recommendation to anyone who's curious to know more- ask Eddie when you write to him to order this private CD (yeah, yeah, I know that was evil to sample a private CD). Seriously, as I've mentioned on the board previously, I have both of Eddie's addresses (Cape Cod and Florida). He sells all of his CD's via the mail, and enjoys correspondence... and is an EXTREMELY nice gentleman.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jim R

[JSngry]

2. Lem Winchester - Why don’t they understand (Henderson / Fishman) - from “With Feeling” (Moodsville)

Lem Winchester (vib), Richard Wyands (p), George Duvivier (b ), Roy Haynes (d). Recorded 1960

Quite a few people said this tune sounded familiar... and suggested it could be a standard. I wonder... I had never heard of the song until I got this CD, but a little research suggests that this was a country (!) hit back in the late 50’s, for a guy named George Hamilton IV. Not the actor with the ridiculously permanent tan, I presume.

That's the cat that did "Abeline", a song that many non-C&W buffs might recognize.

[Harold_Z]

Thanks for a great disc Jim. There's A LOT here that I dug and it will definitely get me exploring a few people I've haven't previously spent enough time time listening to. One in particular I'm bugged that I didn't get is the Lee Morgan cut. I usually can ID Lee pretty quickly, but the Miles approach fooled me. I HAVE that record too (!), AND I liked it - I just haven't paid it it's proper due listening time.

Jack Wilson is definitely going to get further listening to from here on. I dug his playing on that track.

[randyhersom]

Very enjoyable, and I'm pleased to have gotten three artists right. That's three more than last time.

I promise when I get my chance I won't bait Jim with a copyist. : )

[DrJ]

Agree with Joe's comments about Ed Bickert on DAYS GONE BY, that is a killer guitar album (I'd toyed with putting a cut from that on my "jazz from around the world" blindfold disc, to represent Canada, but then felt I should go "more exotic"). Bickert sounds much more to be an individual voice on that than on the cut here, which is a ringer for Hall IMHO.

Great disc Jim, you've cemented one purchase for me (aw, I was pretty sure I'd get the Lee Morgan et al Mosaic of Vee Jay material, but that tune nudged me even further in that direction) and definitely got me motivated for a couple more (the Joshua Breakstone and the Guaraldi for sure - I have a lot of Vince but not that one). I may get that Hawes too (if I can find it!).

[Jim R]

Agree with Joe's comments about Ed Bickert on DAYS GONE BY, that is a killer guitar album (I'd toyed with putting a cut from that on my "jazz from around the world" blindfold disc, to represent Canada, but then felt I should go "more exotic"). Bickert sounds much more to be an individual voice on that than on the cut here, which is a ringer for Hall IMHO.

I've not heard DAYS GONE BY. As I've already said, I think Bickert has some distinct differences from Hall, so I'm a tad uncomfortable with the "ringer for Hall" comment. Bickert is a contemporary of Hall's (born only two years after him), and as far as I know was not significantly influenced by Hall. I gather that they developed their similarities independently. Most everybody is more familiar with Hall (which is understandable), and thus I think it's assumed (especially since they both were associated with Desmond, and Hall had that gig ten years earlier) that Hall was a big influence. At any rate, to my ears Bickert has an individual voice- different tone, different feel, different chordal style from Hall. Bickert is one of my all-time favorites, and I've never really warmed much to Hall, so they can't be that similar. I would have to hear DAYS GONE BY to be sure, but I suspect that Bickert's playing on that is more of an excursion/experiment, as opposed to his "normal" voice (IOW, it may be an "individual" voice, but perhaps not his "normal" voice).

BTW, I think the "ringer for Hall" comment might make more sense to me if Jim Hall was still the same musician he was, say in1964. Nowadays (and for many years past), he reminds me very little of Bickert.

[Jim R]

As long as I'm "sparring" with Tony here I might as well post something I'd saved since last week...

I think the following grew out of a comment about Joshua Breakstone's sound. I'll preface by saying that Breakstone is easily one of the most recognizable guitarists in jazz today (to my ears). I can recognize him as instantly as Grant Green, or Wes, or Kenny Burrell. Of course, I've been a big fan of his (and seen him live several times) since the mid-80's...

Tony Jerant posted on the "guesses" thread: “I find very few guitarists have a unique, easily identifiable sound.” I don’t mean to pick on Tony here, and he may have meant this as a personal opinion (speakiing only of his own experiences in listening to guitarists, which I wouldn’t necessarily “challenge” him on), but in a way, think that this is a general misconception. Over the years, I have frequently heard people (in derogatory fashion) lump “jazz guitar” into a single sound category, as if it all sounds the same. Of course, everyone’s ears function in different ways, both in terms of taste as well as sensitivity to (and appreciation for) certain sounds. In addition, some people have spent more time than others in listening carefully to different guitarists. This is the key, IMO. I realize that I'm abnormal in terms of my attraction to jazz guitar music, but I feel a need to speak on topics like this. My experience with this subgenre has given me more confidence to express myself than in any other area of jazz. So, that's where the 'tude is coming from.

I think this is a fascinating topic- the subject of tone creation and differentiation in jazz (with regard to all instruments), and how it is possible to create (from the players’ standpoint) and distinguish (from the listeners’ standpoint) these sounds. Analyzing this phenomenon within the category of any particular instrument is both scientifically interesting as well as mysterious, I think.

In terms of the guitar, there is probably an above-average range of possible sounds as compared to other instruments (or so it would seem to me). In other words, there are a greater variety of instrument designs and variations within the guitar family than most of the other major instruments used in jazz. Now I know that all brass instruments (and mouthpieces), all saxophones (and reeds), all pianos (etc, etc) are not created equal, but there is less natural tonal variation in most of these instruments compared to that of the guitar family (and amps enter the picture as well) and probably less options for altering the sound. For example, how many instruments have a "tone" control?

edit: BTW, my area of interest doesn't even include the world of "effects" in jazz guitar. I think I pointed this out in a guitar thread a few months ago... to me, there are discernable differences in the personal tonal stamps of most (not all) guitarists who simply plug an archtop into an amp and play clean. Subtle sometimes, but definitely noticeable the more time you spend listening.

Edited October 29, 2003 by Jim R

[connoisseur series500]

Thanks Jim for the compilation. I don't really have anything to add especially since I couldn't identify a single artist, though I was the first to correctly identify the tune on #6 (yuck, yuck!)

As far as buying any of the sessions: I might get that Guaraldi. I was impressed with that one; and I'll listen to the others again.

Thanks.

[DrJ]

First about the Bickert - my intention was not to say his playing is always like Hall's, but here, darn it, he sounds a heck of a lot like him. That doesn't mean he was influenced by him, and who knows, he may have come up with the sound before Hall, but he sounds a lot like him. I don't find that to be the case at all on DAYS GONE BY. My hunch is that on the blindfold cut, given the setting, he either consciously or unconsciously adopted some of the mannerisms of the Hall/Evans collaboration.

Now to the bigger issue: there may be an above average POTENTIAL for unique soundprints for jazz guitarists, but the fact remains for my ears that most guitarists then promptly eliminate most of that potential by espousing a limpid tone and attack that eliminates most of the sonic possibilities (for example, the tone control is usually set to roll off much or most of the highs, almost as a matter of course). Compounding the problem, many of these guitarists also use pretty "orthodox" bop guitar phrasing.

I am willing to admit that some of the issue may be with recording quality - it's hard to capture the nuances of sound. But it's more than that.

For my money, there is a major problem with guitarists feeling as though they have to have a "legit" sound, which so many interpret to mean "uncolored." People like John Scofield get ripped regularly on this board and elsewhere for using as much coloration as they do. While I'm not always sold by Scofield's playing lately, I have to give the man credit - you hear him once and you know him immediately in the future. And it goes beyond that, he also has an extremely distinctive attack and phrasing - they can cross over into cliche/almost self-parody at times, which is the other side of the double-edged sword, but I admire his ability to create a signature sound anyone can identify immensely.

There are also inherent limitations in the range of tones that a guitarist can recreate when using a "pure" sound. Wind instruments are generally a whole lot more expressive, particularly the saxophone...partly due to the embouchure issue (one not only can vary blowing but mouth shape, tongue use, etc - the guitarist can really only vary finger pressure on the fretboard and pick attack, the latter often being negated by having a tone setting that makes all but the most drastic differences in attack disappear), partly due to being able to toy with various and drastically-different sounding mouthpieces and reeds. The fact that sax players can toy with these things and still remain "legit" because "it's all acoustic, all natural" is not to be overlooked. It's still considered "jazz" by all concerned - listeners and players - with these guys.

With guitarists, there's of course string gauge and tension but you honestly don't hear dramatic differences on all but the most stellar recordings and hi fi systems as much as the player him/herself FEELS the differences. Then there's hollow versus solid body, but most jazz players seem to eschew anything but hollow (or maybe semi-solid)...someone like Mike Stern is a notable exception. Pickups, again, impart subtle changes in sound but it's really subtle and I think more felt by the player than all but the most attuned listener. Beyond that you are left with various amp choices (although again with the settings most players use, it's almost like there might as well just be one amp) and then effects and colorations which, as I've mentioned, most jazz guitarists and sadly most jazz guitar afficionados seem to frown upon...and once the player has crossed into "the effects zone," a goodly portion of the jazz snobs say "well, it's nice, but it's really not jazz any more, is it?" I am convinced one reason Jim Hall gets flack these days is because of his use of such tools which is a shame - his trio show I saw at the Vanguard in NYC a couple years back was one of the most compelling live performances of jazz I've ever seen.

It's worth mentioning at this point that I've played guitar myself for the past 26 years and have been an avid listener to guitarists of all stripes since well before I began playing (I got my first stereo at age 8 and have had a pretty diverse record collection ever since, which for years was dominated by guitar-centered music). While I can often appreciate subtle differences between jazz guitar players, I stand firm by my comment that there are only a relative handful of truly distinctive sounds out there for jazz guitarists that can be identified with a blindfold type setting (especially those with a more or less traditional approach and tone) when compared against saxophonists and trumpeters (not all of those folks are distinctive either, but there is a much greater relative number of unique voices to me).

While the quality of ideas and playing is otherwise superior for jazz guitarists, overall I find rock and blues guitar players are much more likely to cultivate recognizable tones than jazz players, again probably relating to that "gotta be legit" bugaboo that I mentioned earlier.

So in summary, I think we just fundamentally (and hopefully amiably) disagree on many issues here, Jim. As one example, for my money Hall is not only one of the singularly unique voices on the guitar in the "legit sound" school - his playing has also become far more adventurous over the years. If anything, he's an even greater musician now than he was in the past (which is really saying something because I find his work with Desmond, with Bill Evans, and with Rollins was flat out astonishing). Again, my intent is not to say there is "NO difference" between most guitarists, but rather to say that the differences are far more subtle than they are between reed players in jazz and that it is beyond many people's interest to invest the energy to look for such differences - it's a point of diminishing returns for me, and I think musicians ought to strive to put a much more identifiable stamp on their music than such musical birdwatching requires.

One last point - I also agree that the options for piano sounds are somewhat limited, and I think that also shows up in the tests - most people have trouble picking out pianists unless they have a very unique sound and approach (Coltrane-period and beyond Tyner, for example).

The proof is in the pudding - most people here did very poorly in identifying the guitarists in your blindfold disc and did relatively better with the horn players. Same thing with my disc - people confused Abercrombie with Metheny (an "easy" distinction for me and you as guitarists, but really hard for most others) and I think you were the only one who got Rene Thomas.

Edited October 29, 2003 by DrJ

[Jim R]

Tony, this is fun, and I know I can argue with you without any fear of hard feelings developing.

First about the Bickert - my intention was not to say his playing is always like Hall's, but here, darn it, he sounds a heck of a lot like him.

Sounds like Hall from what session? What year? When I think of Hall these days, I think of a much different sound- and more importantly, approach. Hall, as you said, is more "adventurous". Bickert does do some interesting things on this in terms of harmony, but he doesn't get dissonant and play "out" the way Hall does. So, again, I think it's more of an apt comparison if you're talking about Hall at some point in the distant past.

My hunch is that on the blindfold cut, given the setting, he either consciously or unconsciously adopted some of the mannerisms of the Hall/Evans collaboration.

Pretty bold hunch, IMO. Bickert plays on this track pretty much in the same style he always plays in (or at least a high percentage of the time... I've probably heard most of Bickert's recordings, but not all). He hasn't altered his sound in ages, either, the way Hall has.

Compounding the problem, many of these guitarists also use pretty "orthodox" bop guitar phrasing.

Oh come on, Tony. That's the kind of stereotype that I was talking about. Tell me there aren't an equivalent percentage of saxophonists or trumpeters who employ "orthodox" bop phrasing.

John Scofield- I'm not a fan (never dug his sound), but I'm one who has stood up for his (and others') right (duh- to those who would disagree on this!) to color his sound. My point is NOT that guitarists "should" plug an archtop into an amp and start playing. My point is that I CAN hear subtle differences between many (not all) guitarists who do, and I wish more people could/would pay attention enough to appreciate that for themselves. It goes beyond a distinction between different players- it manifests itself when a player changes guitars as well. Kenny Burrell is an example I've used. He played different guitars throughout his career- all archtops- and got distinctly different sounds with them.

I stand firm by my comment that there are only a relative handful of truly distinctive sounds out there for jazz guitarists that can be identified with a blindfold type setting (especially those with a more or less traditional approach and tone) when compared against saxophonists and trumpeters (not all of those folks are distinctive either, but there is a much greater relative number of unique voices to me).

Fair enough, but really Tony- if you can't pick Joshua Breakstone out of a crowd, it's probably because you haven't listened to him long enough (not that you necessarily should, but no other guitarist sounds just like him). I feel strongly about his distinctive sound (not just tone, but the whole deal). I think he's way above the crowd in that regard, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for having honed a unique sound. It may be partly due to differences in our hearing, but I'm going to insist that it's a lack of exposure on your part (again, that's not a put-down).

I think we just fundamentally (and hopefully amiably) disagree on many issues here, Jim. As one example, for my money Hall is not only one of the singularly unique voices on the guitar in the "legit sound" school - his playing has also become far more adventurous over the years. If anything, he's an even greater musician now than he was in the past

Bad example, Tony. I don't disagree with anything you just said about Hall. I was the one who pointed out that Hall has become more adventurous over the years. He IS a great musician. I said I've never cared much for him (just personal taste), but I DO respect him a great deal.

The proof is in the pudding - most people here did very poorly in identifying the guitarists in your blindfold disc and did relatively better with the horn players.

Tony, this may prove that we have relatively few jazz guitar fans here on the board, not necessarily that guitarists are inherently less recognizeable. That's sort of the whole point- I'm trying to create MORE interest, and do my best to combat some annoying stereotypes.

Thanks for the dialog!

Edited October 29, 2003 by Jim R

[A Lark Ascending]

How come Ed Bickert has virtually disappeared from the catalogue?

His Concords seem deleted. On CD Universe just "The Guitar Mastery of Ed Bickert" 'back ordered.' On Amazon UK the same disk, everything else 'limited availability'.

Any thoughts on "The Guitar Mastery of Ed Bickert"? I just know Bickert from those Rosemery Clooney discs.

[Tom Storer]

I saw Louis Stewart play once, in a pub in Dublin. It was magic. When I closed my eyes I felt like I was in New York. Then after the set, as Stewart was leaving the stage, he said to the bass player, in a broad Dublin accent, "Are ye goin' fer a pint?" Mind you, that could have been New York too!

I'm not much of a guitar aficionado in general, but this is making me want to revisit those I enjoy, including Bickert, Breakstone, Peter Leitch and Adam Rogers whom I recently discovered. I love Metheny, too, particularly in his non-PMG settings, and Scofield when he's playing relatively straight-ahead (such as a recent concert I saw of his trio with Steve Swallow and Bill Stewart). Abercrombie I'm less familiar with. Usually my preferences are for a more straight-ahead guitar sound (can't stand Bill Frisell, for instance).

[DrJ]

First about the Bickert - my intention was not to say his playing is always like Hall's, but here, darn it, he sounds a heck of a lot like him.

Sounds like Hall from what session? What year?

He sounds like he hews pretty closely to the "classic" Jim Hall sound of the early to mid 60's, not like the modern day Hall. Again, I'm not trying to say it's conscious or even that Hall influenced him (it could be the other way around), the main point is that they are close enough to have confused a lot of folks including me, and I think I have a much better ear for distinctions among guitarists than many (probably not you).

Tony, this may prove that we have relatively few jazz guitar fans here on the board, not necessarily that guitarists are inherently less recognizeable. That's sort of the whole point- I'm trying to create MORE interest, and do my best to combat some annoying stereotypes.

Well, I think the "people just don't listen to/give any street cred to jazz guitarists" complaint is a cop-out, one I have heard from other guitarists and fans as well. The flaw in the argument is that the converse is equally (and I personally think WAY more) plausible: one reason people DON'T listen to guitarists is that there are only a few that anyone but a total guitar nut can pick out AND even fewer who are able to communicate at the level that saxophonists and trumpeters are able to. Again, this is coming from someone who loves guitar and has played for over a quarter century.

Look, a whole bunch of people INCLUDING YOU, someone who obviously knows their guitarists and can hear some differences, misidentified Grant Green on track 8 in Dan's blindfold test - one of the singular voices on the instrument. I'm proud to say I picked him out and thought it was pretty obvious (as I recall, we even debated this issue somewhat after), but I'm sure that was mostly lucky and I used the context to help point him out. So to be frank, I'm not even remotely convinced you could consistently pick out the differences in less overtly distinctive players blindfolded, particularly if it involved recordings you'd never heard them on (even typical recordings for the player in question). I don't mean that as an insult, but just as a way of bringing some grounding in reality to the discussion!

Compounding the problem, many of these guitarists also use pretty "orthodox" bop guitar phrasing.

Oh come on, Tony. That's the kind of stereotype that I was talking about. Tell me there aren't an equivalent percentage of saxophonists or trumpeters who employ "orthodox" bop phrasing.

I don't really think there are, Jim. There are certainly a lot of horn players who fall prey to orthodoxy, but the percentages (at least back in the glory days of jazz) are WAY lower to my ears than for guitarists.

My hunch is that on the blindfold cut, given the setting, he either consciously or unconsciously adopted some of the mannerisms of the Hall/Evans collaboration.

Pretty bold hunch, IMO. Bickert plays on this track pretty much in the same style he always plays in (or at least a high percentage of the time... I've probably heard most of Bickert's recordings, but not all). He hasn't altered his sound in ages, either, the way Hall has.

Well heck, you haven't even heard DAYS GONE BY and you've speculated in a prior post that Bickert plays "more experimentally" on it than usual. I don't hear that at all, compared with Greenwich he's far more conventional, but the point is you can't fault me for speculating about a recording I've actually HEARD if you're gonna turn around and do THAT!

I stand firm by my comment that there are only a relative handful of truly distinctive sounds out there for jazz guitarists that can be identified with a blindfold type setting (especially those with a more or less traditional approach and tone) when compared against saxophonists and trumpeters (not all of those folks are distinctive either, but there is a much greater relative number of unique voices to me).

Fair enough, but really Tony- if you can't pick Joshua Breakstone out of a crowd, it's probably because you haven't listened to him long enough (not that you necessarily should, but no other guitarist sounds just like him). I feel strongly about his distinctive sound (not just tone, but the whole deal). I think he's way above the crowd in that regard, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for having honed a unique sound. It may be partly due to differences in our hearing, but I'm going to insist that it's a lack of exposure on your part (again, that's not a put-down).

Now THAT is a bold assertion, my friend. You're basically guaranteeing that if I just listened enough to Breakstone I'd be able to pick him out from the crowd blindfolded. I'm not sure I'm that good, even given my extensive love for and interest in jazz guitar, but I'm flattered! The main point though is that you simply can't know this to be a fact. You MAY be right, but no way to be sure (I do plan to spend a lot more time with Breakstone, first via this Monk album and then branching out if it all grabs me as much as the track you sampled!). I've listened to Eddie Harris, live and on recordings, for years and still totally whiffed on the cut included on your disc...so repeated, prolonged exposure is in no way a guarantee that one will be able to identify someone blindfolded.

So I continue to strongly assert: except for a very few talented listeners (mostly but not all musicians, particularly when listening to people who play the same axe they do), mere mortals are only able to pick out the most distinctive players on ANY axe, and even for those players it generally has to be a very characteristic recording or people get wrong-footed. If this was not so, nobody would even be interested much in blindfold tests because they would be a crashing bore - the thrill is in the learning/growing by listening and guessing. These blindfold discussions have driven all this home so clearly...Jim Sangrey by and large has the highest percentage of IDs on all instruments but particularly sax, and surprise! He's a musician, someone who really lives and breathes the music. We all get to learn from Jim, which is great, but I don't think it would be nearly as much fun if everyone got "A's" on their blindfold tests!

My whole point continues to be simply that the case for identifying guitarists is just a matter of degrees WORSE than for players of other instruments, for both the fundamental mechanical reasons and, secondarily, the "legitimacy" bug that I outlined above.

Haven't you ever wondered WHY the role of guitar in jazz has by and large been secondary/marginalized? Do you honestly believe it's mostly or all stereotype? I just don't think so. Why is it you think so many jazz musicians gravitate toward the sax, trumpet, and trombone? I submit it's that the ability to create an individual voice, particularly a "vocalized" sound, is simply greater for these players given the tools they have to work with (in an "all acoustic" attitude/environment) than for guitarists.

Some of this again is guitarists digging their own creative graves...for just one example, Herb Ellis recently caught some flak in a discussion I participated in because he has a "twang" and bends notes. Why is bending so little used by jazz players, given its expressive potential? Just one more shovel full of dirt on the creative coffin.

[pryan]

Harold - You can tell (well I can, at least) that it's Lee on that tune by the phrasing and the various licks that he plays in his solo. Lee's solos are usually a lot "busier" that Miles': longer lines, more notes, more use of the smearing or half-valve technique. I guess it was the harmon mute that fooled a lot of people; Lee doesn't usually play with a mute all that often.

Another note about this track, I actually do have it on the Mosaic set. I went back and listened to that session, not realizing it contained the tune in question, then played the B.F. test disc again, and lo and behold, it was from the Vee-Jay recordings. I guess I have to re-familiarze myself with that Mosaic.

Tony - Don't hesitate on grabbing the Shorter/Morgan, it's a great set. Very interesting to hear Shorter that early on in his career.

[Jim R]

Tony posted:

Look, a whole bunch of people INCLUDING YOU, someone who obviously knows their guitarists and can hear some differences, misidentified Grant Green on track 8 in Dan's blindfold test - one of the singular voices on the instrument.

Yes, I was fooled at first. For me, the "singular voice" of Grant is his 60's style/sound, not the funkier style of the 70's, which for me was less uniquely Grant and featured a broader style of playing. I don't listen to that as much, thus my initial failure to recognize it. I did decide it was Grant (with some help from you and perhaps others) before Dan revealed the answers.

I'm proud to say I picked him out and thought it was pretty obvious (as I recall, we even debated this issue somewhat after), but I'm sure that was mostly lucky...

So... you're proud of yourself for being lucky...

So to be frank, I'm not even remotely convinced you could consistently pick out the differences in less overtly distinctive players blindfolded, particularly if it involved recordings you'd never heard them on (even typical recordings for the player in question).

??? I'm not convinced I could do that either. I didn't say that I could. Go back and read what I said. I didn't say anything about how well I could do in a blindfold test identifying guitarists. It may have come across as bragging, but I was simply stating a fact (that I can identify many jazz guitarists who don't use effects). Some I can recognize more quickly than others, some after a few notes, some after a few songs. Look, I'm trying to be positive here, Tony. When I said I thought you could recognize Breakstone with more exposure, I meant that in an encouraging way. I wasn't "guaranteeing" it. You can doubt me (and yourself) on the likelihood, if that's your preference.

I don't mean that as an insult, but just as a way of bringing some grounding in reality to the discussion!

So, I shouldn't be insulted when being told to "get real" by someone who distorts what I say and misses the point? I know you probably didn't intend to insult me, Tony, but I think the "grounding in reality" part was a cheap shot, and uncalled for (and frankly, colored my mood as I assembled this post).