Rooster_Ties Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) I'm thinking about pestering a couple jazz musician friends of mine (who shall remain unnamed – that is, until I name them!!), into hopefully adding a Zappa tune to their book. So (and this is the reason I posted this thread here in the Musician's forum), what Zappa tunes can best be realized by something as simple as a piano trio plus one or two horns (at most). I know "Peaches en Regalia" is in The Real Book, but the chart looks like a real bear (or an "Idiot Bastard Tune", if you prefer ) – at least to my eyes. And "Blessed Relief" is in The Real Book too – although it's certainly not one of the first 20 or 30 tunes I think of when I think of really 'great' Zappa tunes. (Plus, in both cases, I wouldn't probably trust charts in The Real Book - which are bound to be riddled with errors.) What tunes (if any) do I have any real chance of getting a band to take on, especially if they're playing in real jazz venues – so it's not like they can really go hog-wild with them (not that I'm looking for that either, by the way). And really, I'm looking for honest-to-goodness 'jazz' takes on Zappa, so I guess an alternate question would be this: What Zappa tunes most deserve to be considered 'jazz standards' – if any ever actually got played enough (in jazz contexts) to merit such a designation. On a related note - I'll add that there is a beautiful and very restrained piano-trio version of "The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" on Don Preston's 2001 CD "Transformation. So that's one idea... What Zappa tunes (if any) have any of the musicians here played before??? Edited November 5, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregK Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I know it was meant for percussion (drums, marimba, etc) but I'd be interested to hear the Black Page in this context. Similarly, although it is a TOTAL bitch from what I understand, Sinister Footwear. Not the most melodic of Zappa tunes but still quite demanding and probably rewarding for jazz musicians to pull off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzdog Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 What Zappa tunes most deserve to be considered 'jazz standards' – if any ever actually got played enough (in jazz contexts) to merit such a designation. What Zappa tunes (if any) have any of the musicians here played before??? The intro march from Greggery Peccary Big Swifty The Purple Lagoon New Brown Clouds (also part of Greggery Peccary) I think that any of the material is going to be difficult to play, be it from a rock or a jazz standpoint. One song that is easy (relatively) to play is Zoot Allures, Black Napkins is another tune that lends itself quite well to improv, and is not as complicated as some of the others. If worse comes to worse, you can always do "Caravan with a drum sola"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I know it was meant for percussion (drums, marimba, etc) but I'd be interested to hear the Black Page in this context. Shit, much as I dearly love The Black Page (I've got about a dozen versions of, last time I checked), I think Free For All would just about kill me if I tried to get this added to the set-list of the one group he's in (that I think would be open to trying a Zappa tune). I've got a lead-sheet for The Black Page - from an issue of Keyboard Magazine (from the early 80's), and it's a total son-of-a-bitch, with triplets that are each (each triplet) further subdivided into 5-tuplets and/or 7--tuplets. Ouch!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Woody Herman's band back in the very early 70s confirmed that "America Drinks and Goes Home" was really a hip blowing vehicle, and not a clever parody of a lounge band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I think "Blessed Relief" is a lot of fun to play, certainly more-so if there is a guitar in the band. It's a great trumpet blowing vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little High People Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 twenty small cigars. take yr. clothes off when you dance as a bossa nova. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) Woody Herman's band back in the very early 70s confirmed that "America Drinks and Goes Home" was really a hip blowing vehicle, and not a clever parody of a lounge band. I had nearly forgotten about that one, which I have heard a time or two (but don't own - meaning the Herman verison). And, it has the added benefit of being something (technically) from the Woody Herman book (at least at one time, if only for one brief moment). So, that, along with Fee For All's pedigree of having been in the Thundering Herd since the early 80's -- plus the fact that I know that at least one local pianist happens to know this tune (note to FFA: J.C. probably doesn't know it, but I heard P.S. play "America Drinks..." one time, years ago, at the Plaza III) -- might make for at least a 2% chance of me ever hearing him (FFA) play it!!! ( Don't worry, I'm mostly just yankin' your chain, FFA -- but I was actually thinking about seeing if the WAE would consider doing a Zappa tune, and not necessarily on obtuse one either. ) Edited November 5, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) Fee For All I'm actually considering changing my name to this. Raise a little cash. B) Rooster, I'm all for trying anything. I think the choice would have to be a FZ tune with some substantial melodic/harmonic potential in order for it to come off. Many of FZ's tunes work because of the instrumentation- I often think it might be hard to make specific tunes work w/o vibes/marimba, for example. It's like when you do a piano/bass/drums quartet gig and someone wants an Allman Bros. tune- even if you could (or would) do it it won't sound right. We were talking about that Ed Palermo big band recording of Zappa tunes- I think you liked it more than I did, though I thought it did have some moments. It was a noble effort, but not always successful, and hard pressed to capture the appropriate FZ vibe much of the time, IMHO. I love FZ's music, but I'd be more inclined to try to compose something in that vein than copy or adapt one of his arrangements. Though I did steal some FZ blowing changes once for a tune I wrote. Hmmmm.............. Edited November 5, 2003 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) I certainly think many of Zappa's tunes may be performed in jazz contexts. And there have been attempts at that; Jean-Luc Ponty did and album of Zappa tunes rather early on, allthough that may be closer to fusion than to jazz, and I know of several different big band projects. Regarding the comments above that the tunes work because of the peculiar intrumentation Zappa often favored, there may be some point in that, but I think it's a problem that can be worked around by creative arranging. It is perhaps easier, though, to arrange the tunes for a big band than a combo. I have the Palermo album, and I agree that it sometimes misses the point. A Swedish big band did a similar project a year or two ago - different tunes than Palermo did, but with similar results. The orchestra featured a femal vocalist on several numbers, in my opinion not a good move. If one has decided to try to make adaptions of Zappa material for a smaller jazz group work, I think one mustn't try too hard to "jazz up" the tunes. Then it all ends up like the archetypal Beatles piano trio album we've all heard, but don't want to hear again... Edited November 5, 2003 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Uncle Meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Interesting thread, considering that we (organissimo) were talking about this just last night at the gig. We were thinking of tunes from Apostrophe, which again, would be tough for an organ trio because of the instrumentation of the originals. Great tunes though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) FFA and Dan, I agree that the Ed Palermo big band CD isn't everything one would hope for, despite all the good things I do like about it. I still have to admire the tight arrangements and overall impressive performance of the band with what must me some pretty difficult charts. (And I had to get past Palermo's total Sanborn-esque alto tone!!) Actually, just like FFA also said before, I was thinking along the lines of tunes that Zappa wrote that have enough harmonic flair to be interesting for solo devices. (Like "Beatrice" - where the changes under the solos are highly reflective of the tune itself.) And what I wasn't looking for was a Zappa tune with a cool (but complicated) 'head' -- where the solos then automatically require some sort of vamp that isn't tightly related to the tune itself (since the harmonic changes under the 'head' wouldn't be suitable for solos). Again, I guess I'm looking for something like "Beatrice" - functionally speaking. In this reguard, maybe a tune like "Duke of Prunes" could possibly work, as a ballad or mid-tempo thing. (Actually, I'm listening to a sample of it now, just to refresh my memory, I can easily hear it's melody working well on trombone, a.k.a. FFA's axe.) Tunes like "The Dog Breath Variations" or "Uncle Meat" (while both being great tunes, sure), have heads and forms that would really not work well in a real jazz context. Or at least they would sound weird as hell if you tried to make them swing. And actually, maybe that's the key to this thread -- since so many of Zappa's tunes don't swing (and probably shouldn't be made to), the question becomes what Zappa tunes would sound good, natural, and reasonable if they were made to swing?? Edited November 5, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 We would probably keep the grooves close to the originals. That's a big part of what makes 'em so cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 take yr. clothes off when you dance as a bossa nova. definitely! there's a nice version in this vein on the lost episodes CD as I recall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Some tunes from The Grand Wazoo or Waka/Jawaka albums would make nice blowing tunes, I guess. There have been Zappa arrangements by European classical ensembles in recent years, for woodwind quintet, large woodwind + percussion band, and for baroque ensemble - the latter is intriguing: Ensemble Ambrosius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 "Bebop Tango". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 "Bebop Tango". Yes! I love Roxy and Elsewhere! ".....Bruce Fowler has just completed some sort of trombone solo........" Nobody but Bruce could've nailed that ridiculous ensemble shit. Some of the most amazing trombone playing ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny E Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 I've always thought that Black Napkins from Zoot Allures would be a good tune to play in a group that had traditional jazz instrumentation. Organ trio might be good actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Organ trio might be good actually. Duly noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontooneous Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 "Flower Punk" has perfectly good blowing changes, though it might drive the rhythm section insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 "Flower Punk" has perfectly good blowing changes, though it might drive the rhythm section insane. Welcome Spontooneous!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmanson Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 This is exactly what we were discussing in my Zappa repertoire band, Bogus Pomp. We have an acoustic concert on February 10 at the Palladium Theater in St. Petersburg, Florida and want to feature jazz and "new classical" works by Zappa. Here are some nice jazz-influenced tunes that we have played in the past: echidna's arf of you don't you ever wash that thing? dupree's paradise blessed relief inca roads peaches en regalia big swifty uncle remus pound for a brown I look forward to a more acoustic approach with this band. There are some mp3 files here: Bogus Pomp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 hey rooster, howzabout that EM disk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 This is exactly what we were discussing in my Zappa repertoire band, Bogus Pomp. Hey David, I was thinking about your Zappa group the other day, as Organissimo has recently started working up some of this material. Peaches and Blessed Relief, specifically. We were also thinking about doing Zoot Allures, but that remains to be seen. It's got pretty chords, but I'm wondering how much of the effect of the song relies on that guitar sound. Two others we like a lot are Nanook Rubs It and Cosmic Debris. Especially the latter, for our group. So you guys don't have an electric guitarist? Must be a challenge to arrange that music without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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