Wikipedia Revenge: Curley Russell. Phil Schapp

[AllenLowe]

don't know if I've ever told this story before, but Curley Russell was a friend of mine and years ago he told me that Donna Lee was named after his daughter.

so, a few months later (maybe this is 1977) I'm in the West End Cafe. Phil Schaap says to me, "if you can stump me with some jazz trivia, I'll let you in free."

so I ask him, "Who's Donna Lee named after?" and he doesn't know, so I tell him and I get in free.

6 months later I'm listening to WKCR. And Phil says, "few people know this but Curley Russell himself told me that Donna Lee was named after his daughter."

pissed me off, but that's Phil - so recently I'm looking at Wikipedia under the entry for Curley Russell/Donna Lee - it says:

"According to jazz historian Phil Schaap the classic bebop tune "Donna Lee", a variation on "Back Home Again In Indiana" was named eponymously for Curley's daughter."

but it turns out that any idiot can edit Wikipedia - so I just added:

"Schaap learned this from saxophonist and music historian Allen Lowe, who was a friend of Russell's."

I'm feeling better now. No longer have the urge to strangle Schaap (though that will probably change) -

Edited April 6, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Dan Gould]

How do you know that your bit of jazz trivia didn't make Schapp contact Curley and that he in fact did hear it direct from him?

Regardless, when you think about it, would you say "some shmoe told me that he was friends with Curley Russell and Curley told him ..." or would you simply say "Curley told me ..." ?

[Swinging Swede]

You forgot to edit the French version which still only mentions Schaap.

[AllenLowe]

Phil was not really in contact with Curley in those days, and I saw and talked to Curley pretty regularly - the thing is really a matter of courtesy and credit - not earth shaking, and maybe petty in the big picture, but very typical of Phil, who, for example, would never book anything at the West End unless he could say it was his idea - for one example, I put together a band there with Percy France, Leroy Williams, and Bob Neloms, none of whom had worked together before, and it was an AMAZING band - I knew all the guys, said to Phil, why don't you get them, Percy thought it was fine, ok - and than after the group became popular he kept patting his own back about how smart he was to match them up. Believe me, this kind of stuff gets to you after a while - personally I never take credit for anyone else's effort or idea. I just would not do that. And it gives me no personal satisfaction anyway.

I think it's important to attribute things to the people with whom they originate. It's a matter of the historical record.

Edited April 6, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Cliff Englewood]

I don't feel it's necessary to add anything to this thread, for some strange reason. What is there to say? :tophat:

[AllenLowe]

thanks for the heads up, Swede - unfortunately my command of languages is limited to English and pig-Latin -

and I'm not sure I catch your drift, Cliff -

Edited April 6, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

[Dan Gould]

Dan Gould: "How do you know that your bit of jazz trivia didn't make Schapp contact Curley and that he in fact did hear it direct from him?"

Dan, that is also typical of you. I notice that you often step in, armed with hypothetheses, for no other apparent reason than to dispute what someone posted. Why?

Tell me this hypothesis is an impossible one.

No, its not. Schapp is a part of the NY jazz scene, he could very well have done what I suggested. And furthermore, it was months after - not a day later, or the following weekend. Plenty of time had elapsed for Schapp to confirm what he had heard.

So bugger off.

[AllenLowe]

look, let's not fight over Schaap of all people - I like Phil, have known him for maybe 30 years -

he just has some.........issues.....................

he may indeed be the Irving Stone of jazz (meaning the novelist).

[7/4]

look, let's not fight over Schaap of all people - I like Phil, have known him for maybe 30 years -

he just has some.........issues.....................

he may indeed be the Irving Stone of jazz (meaning the novelist).

Irving Stone was the Irving Stone of jazz (meaning the guy the venue was named after).

[fasstrack]

Phil is pretty out. I know him a long time, don't see him much anymore. He was always cool with me, so it's not personal. But I just can't listen to Birdflight anymore without major groaning. It's not that he makes things up, though I've heard this before. It's his ego---and love of the sound of his own voice. And he has, sadly, taken to using non-profit WKCR airtime to relentlessly plug his JALC classes. Not cool. But then he'll turn around and do like he did on a recent Bix Biederbecke birthday show: play some record I never heard, and that only he would think (and have) to dig up. This time it was 5 guitars, arranged by Bill Challis and led by Bucky Pizzarrelli. 5 top guitar players, playing in tune, time, and synch so beautifully I had to call the station and thank him.

Sometimes I think what Phil needs is a challenger on Birdflight----a pretender to the Throne who will do a 2-hour show and actually play music most of the time..

Edited April 7, 2009 by fasstrack

[Gheorghe]

@AllenLowe!

Gee, you knew Curley Russell. To me, he´s one of the unsung heroes of bop. I´ve always been so impressed with the list of greats he played with, all those geniuses, my heroes, Diz, Bird, Fats, Bud, Tadd Dameron oh boy....

It was really hard then to cut through a band with an unamplified bass, especially if someone like Blakey was on traps (I´m thinking about that incredible Birdland Allstars from June 1950, on the same evening the Miles-Tadd Dameron Band, and the Charlie Parker All Stars, both groups with Curley Russel and Blakey on b and dm. I´d like to see some of them youngsters trying to play the bass fiddle that way, they might get blisters big as a house.

And Curley Russell had a strong sound that recorded well. So he made very very important contributions to the music. He was not so well known for his solo work, but his short soloes (a very nice solo on a BlueNote record "Blowin´in from Chicago") are beautiful.

I always wondered what happened to him in later years. Not much has been written about his activities after the late fifties. I read somewhere he worked with bands at hotels in New York.

I have the greatest respect for musicians like him. Too bad I didn´t have the occasion to tell him that personally.

[Big Beat Steve]

- the thing is really a matter of courtesy and credit -

That just about sums it up IMHO.

If he had just said it was Curley Russell who had named the tune for this particular reason. Point. No babble about how Curley sicked it to P.S. of all people etc. But no ... that would not have been enough, it seems ...

And no, somehow I don't believe certain hypotheses advanced around here as all this bigwig attitude of those who've come to feel they are absolutely indispensable in their field ties in with what you've heard and witnessed in many such cases.

Coming to think of it, I've got all of Ken Burns' JAZZ documentary on video and just LOVE the period footage etc., but would I maybe be better off editing out all the "statements" by Schaap, Marsalis and Crouch when I transfer it to DVD? :D Any suggestions? :D

[AllenLowe]

just to respond to a prior message, by the time I knew Curley he was long out of the music - he had great time, but was superceded by the new generation of bassists like Ray Brown - I think he just did not have their chops. He drove a cab for many years, developed bursitis, went to live with his daughter in Queens, and than developed emphysema and passed away.

One of the nicest people I've ever known, in or out of the biz -

[paul secor]

just to respond to a prior message, by the time I knew Curley he was long out of the music - he had great time, but was superceded by the new generation of bassists like Ray Brown - I think he just did not have their chops. He drove a cab for many years, developed bursitis, went to live with his daughter in Queens, and than developed emphysema and passed away.

One of the nicest people I've ever known, in or out of the biz -

Curly Russell did have great time. Listen to Introducing Johnny Griffin - a seriously wailing session. Chops and facility aren't everything.

[paul secor]

By the way - is it Curley or Curly? I've seen both spellings.

[AllenLowe]

good question - now I'm not sure -

[Use3D]

I suppose someone could simply email Phil and ask him... hehe... :rsly:

[clifford_thornton]

Percy France and Bob Neloms?! Jesus, Allen...

[AllenLowe]

very sympathetic musical partners, unfortunately never recorded - I always liked the sound of the Nat Cole/Lester Young trio, and Bob had a terrific left hand, we never missed having a bass player - and he was a harmonic genius (there's that word again - Bob probably qualifies, however) -

Edited April 8, 2009 by AllenLowe

[stevebop]

A friend of mine related this anecdote to me, about listening to Schapp on KCR as he and his wife were heading back to Boston:

"Steve, we were driving out of New York City listening to Phil Schapp. We didn't hear any music until we got to...

CONNECTICUT !!!"

'Nuff said!

[Chuck Nessa]

I hope someone is collecting his version of jazz history and publishes it somewhere on the net.