RVG, JRVG and TOCJ reissues

[Norm]

Hello All...first post here:

Over the past few years, I've been getting into "mainstream" jazz from the late 1950s and early 1960s (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Grant Green, Sonny Clark, Blakey, Morgan, Hubbard, etc).

Just recently, though, I've probed deeper only to realize that several versions of these albums exist on CD (McMaster, RVG Reissues and Toshiba). In particular, I'm most concerned about the first batch of RVG re-issues (circa 1998/99): Cannonball Adderly's Somethin' Else, Art Blakey's Moanin', Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue and Hank Mobley's Soul Station. I currently own these RVGs but the treble does seem boosted (a bit bright) so I'm looking for alternatives (again, on CD as I don't have a turntable).

Now, I bought and just received today one from the TOCJ series -- Lee Morgan's Sidewinder -- and compared directly it to the 1999 RVG edition and did like soundstage and less abrasive sound of the instruments better on the TOCJ-6408 than the RVG edition. Now, the TOCJ version was issued in 2004 (the so-called 1500 series) and there is no hint of RVG's name on the Japanese label/insert that came with the CD.

However, I've been doing some research into the other titles listed above (Cannonball Adderly's Somethin' Else, Art Blakey's Moanin', and Hank Mobley's Soul Station) and have found that while Toshiba released these in 2007 and 2008 as part of the TOCJ series (1700), but the label does list these as RVG. I guess my question whether the terms TOCJ and JRVG are mutually exclusive and thus TOCJ released versions are definately mixed by the folks at Toshiba (and not RVG) or whether they are the same mixes (The TOCJ releases run about 20 bucks vs. the U.S. RVG which can be picked up for about half that). I don't want to spend double the money just to have the same CD sent from Japan.

Here is a link to a jpeg image of the Hank Mobley Soul Station issue by TOCJ that I am referring to.

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_front.jpg

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_back.jpg

Can anybody clear any of this up for me (i.e. whether more recent TOCJ releases that brand the RVG name have been in fact mixed by him and would thus have the same sound or if these are different from the so-called JRVG series?)

Norm

[Bluerein]

Hello Norm,

good to have you aboard!

It's actually quite complicated and it will need some trial and error to sort things out.

The first RvG series originate from Japan. These so called JRvG's were issued in the mini LP format. Later on the US (and the rest of the world) got the "domestic" RvG series. Since a lot of people complained about the narrow stereo spread of many of the JRvG's Cuscuna asked RvG to redo some of them for the US market. Later on the JRvG's and the RvG's use the same masters (you can tell this from the remastering date which is given on both issues). The 1500 series from Japan you are refering to are 24 bit remastered in Japan and sound really good imo. There's some complaining about the loud'ish compression on these. Most people on this board (and elswhere) think the older Japanese TOCJ series sound best (the one with the LP number after the TOCJ prefix). These are hard to get nowadays but you should try to locate some to hear for yourself.

The TOCJ-70xx series use the same US RvG remasters.

Hope this helps........

Please keep on asking if you need more info.

Cheers,

Reinier

[J.A.W.]

Like Reinier said, there are several Japanese Blue Note series with the TOCJ prefix, with both Blue Notes and albums on other EMI labels, such as Pacific Jazz. The Blue Note CDs that were issued in the 1990s in the "Blue Note Works" series have TOCJ-15XX, TOCJ-16XX and TOCJ-4XXX catalogue numbers.

Later series, including the Rudy Van Gelder-mastered discs Reinier was referring to, have TOCJ-9XXX catalogue numbers and they don't belong to the "Blue Note Works" series; they're reissues of Blue Note, Pacific Jazz and other EMI label albums. In the late 1990s and early 2000s Toshiba reissued many Blue Notes in the TOCJ-6XXX series to commemorate Blue Note's 60th anniversary; they also issued Pacific Jazz and other EMI label CDs in another TOCJ-6XXX series. All late 1990s and 2000s TOCJ-9XXX and TOCJ-6XXX CDs are 24-bit remastered; unlike Reinier I don't like the sound on many of the ones I've heard, to my ears they sound too harsh and some are too loud to my taste.

Edited September 9, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Norm]

OK, thanks guys...wow, it is complicated.

While your explanations were clear, I'm still a little confused. Let me try to simplify it by taking one example. If we were to look at Hank Mobley's Soul Station, I can commonly find 3 versions of this CD (which are in my price range: less than U.S.$30 or so)

First there of course is the 1999 RVG release(U.S.). This can be found very cheap ($10) and its the only one I have listening experience with. Its not horrible, but I'm wondering if I can find something at least modestly better.

So here are the two other TOCJ releases of this I've found:

TOCJ-7037 (2008 issue)

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_front.jpg

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_back.jpg

TOCJ-6424 (2004 and 2007 issue)

http://www.cduniverse.com/images.asp?pid=6...Soul+Station+CD

If you click on the image links, you will see that the TOCJ-7037 bears the markings of RVG while the TOCJ-6424 simply indicates Blue Note series.

1. Reiner you noted that "The TOCJ-70xx series use the same US RvG remasters." So does this mean that the TOCJ-7037 will sound identical to the U.S. RVG

(1999) version that I have, as it bears RVG mark on it? Or will it have a different (hopefully better sound)?

Obviously, I don't want to buy it again (for double the prices) just to end up with same sound as the 1999 U.S. RVG issue I have.

2. Is there anybody who has compared the TOCJ-7XXX series with the TOCJ-6XXX series? If so, is there a general difference in the quality / characteristics

of these two series? A general winner between the two?

I'd love to find some older versions -- like the TOCJ-LP series you referred to -- but can't seem to.

Thanks in advance for any opinions on either or both of these two issues.

Norm

[J.A.W.]

OK, thanks guys...wow, it is complicated.

While your explanations were clear, I'm still a little confused. Let me try to simplify it by taking one example. If we were to look at Hank Mobley's Soul Station, I can commonly find 3 versions of this CD (which are in my price range: less than U.S.$30 or so)

First there of course is the 1999 RVG release(U.S.). This can be found very cheap ($10) and its the only one I have listening experience with. Its not horrible, but I'm wondering if I can find something at least modestly better.

So here are the two other TOCJ releases of this I've found:

TOCJ-7037 (2008 issue)

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_front.jpg

http://www.jpophelp.com/cdscans/JPN-TOCJ-7037_back.jpg

TOCJ-6424 (2004 and 2007 issue)

http://www.cduniverse.com/images.asp?pid=6...Soul+Station+CD

If you click on the image links, you will see that the TOCJ-7037 bears the markings of RVG while the TOCJ-6424 simply indicates Blue Note series.

1. Reiner you noted that "The TOCJ-70xx series use the same US RvG remasters." So does this mean that the TOCJ-7037 will sound identical to the U.S. RVG

(1999) version that I have, as it bears RVG mark on it? Or will it have a different (hopefully better sound)?

Obviously, I don't want to buy it again (for double the prices) just to end up with same sound as the 1999 U.S. RVG issue I have.

2. Is there anybody who has compared the TOCJ-7XXX series with the TOCJ-6XXX series? If so, is there a general difference in the quality / characteristics

of these two series? A general winner between the two?

I'd love to find some older versions -- like the TOCJ-LP series you referred to -- but can't seem to.

Thanks in advance for any opinions on either or both of these two issues.

Norm

A Japanese contact told me that the TOCJ-7XXX series used the same remasterings as the TOCJ-6XXX series.

The "TOCJ-LP" series are called "Blue Note Works" series and, as I posted above, they have the catalogue numbers TOCJ-15XX, TOCJ-16XX and TOCJ-4XXX; in other words, they used the same numbers as the original Blue Note LPs - hence the misnomer "TOCJ-LP" series. These "Blue Note Works" CDs were issued in the 1990s.

Here's a Japanese Blue Note site with links to the various series (scroll down).

Edited September 9, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Norm]

Thanks for link and explanation, Hans. OK, I think I got it...the TOCJ-6000 are TOCJ-7000 are 24-bit and would most likely sound similar to one another since they both come from the same remasters.

Am I correct to infer that you prefer the sound of the earlier series you mentioned (TOCJ-15XX, TOCJ-16XX and TOCJ-4XXX) even though they seem to be 16-bit and 20-bit? Or is this just a lesser of two evils, in your opinion?

Edited September 9, 2009 by Norm

[J.A.W.]

Thanks for link and explanation, Hans. OK, I think I got it...the TOCJ-6000 are TOCJ-7000 are 24-bit and would most likely sound similar to one another since they both come from the same remasters.

Am I correct to infer that you prefer the sound of the earlier series you mentioned (TOCJ-15XX, TOCJ-16XX and TOCJ-4XXX) even though they seem to be 16-bit and 20-bit? Or is this just a lesser of two evils, in your opinion?

I do indeed generally prefer the "Blue Note Works" CDs. As fellow member Claude always says, it's the mastering that counts, not the resolution or the format (16-bit, 20-bit, 24-bit, SACD, HDCD, or whatever), and I agree. But it doesn't matter what I think, just let your ears decide.

[Dmitry]

I compared the sonics on the newly-purchased TOCJ-6446 Blues Walk / Lou Donaldson (24bit) [bN1593] to my older BN Works TOCJ-4053 Light Foot / Lou Donaldson [bN4053] , and was quite pleased with the sound of the former. Granted, I was not comparing the different remasters of the same session, but being that the two sessions were recorded only months apart, with almost the same personnel, I was expecting similar sonics. However, the newer TOCJ-6446 sounds more defined, tighter, with crisper delineation between the instruments, and a better sound-stage. The 1993 BN Works cd is in line with the general sound of the series, softer, with a significant instrument spread. FWIW, I preferred the sound of the newer 24-bit TOCJ-6XXX series disc.

[etherbored]

i'm with you. however, this is highly subjective territory, no? on one hand, i do see hans' point of view in that the older works series pressings are pretty faithful to the analogue vinyl sound (well, as faithful as a digital format can be, anyway).

btw. here's that link to the history of japanese blue note cd pressing series in japan;

http://wiki.livedoor.jp/recordame/d/bluenote#jprelease ....

[Dmitry]

Imho, as I/we listen to various multiple sources, the objective begins to blend in and displace the subjective, to a degree, of course. In other words, I know what sounds good and what doesn't sound right to my ears. FWIW, the older BN Works cds have a sonic signature of their own, and do not sound as faithful to the original BN vinyl as we are accustomed to think. They do have a pleasant, consistent sound.

[Dmitry]

I read that in the early 1990s BN Works TOCJ-15xx and TOCJ-4xxx discs were mastered from the back-up tapes, not the original master-tapes, but can't confirm the veracity of that. I wonder if the difference in sonics was significant between the tapes.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Dmitry

[shaft]

Hi!

I'm a fan of the BN Works series and I agree that they do indeed sound consistent. I've also heard that they are not from the original tapes but I'm not sure. They are not the final word in resolution but the tonal balance is spot on with good bass etc.

I think I have around 50 BN Works and have compared them to RVG in several cases. The RVGs are loud, bright and often with narrowed stereo spread (at least the early ones in JPN and US). It got better though. The Macmasters are OK but "thin" in the bass department and a bit "dull" sounding overall.

The newer TOCJ series 6XXX and up I'm not that impressed with. They ones I got (around 10) sound generally bright, loud and compressed. Not impressed.

If you want the best sounding BLUE note on CD you should look into the recent XRCD24 series. They are mastered with care from the original 2-track analog tapes.

The Soul Station XRCD is WAY better than any other issue on CD (even the BN Works). Just fantastic! We are not talking small imoprovement here but better in all respects. I highly recommend this series - just a shame about the price of $30 a piece ;-(

/Shaft

[shaft]

BTW some interesting info about the stereo Blue Notes is that contrary what many believes the stereo tapes that Rudy recorded are really the original masters. When they were issued on the mono LPs they were actually fold downs from the stereo master tapes. It is indicated on the master tapes.

Given that information it is indeed a bit strange that the mono LPs are the most collectible if there was issued both a Stereo and Mono edition of the LP. However often the mono edition came before the stereo and is considered the original. Earlier pressings (deep groove, ear etc.) are generally better made though. But if you want to get closest to the master tapes - in these instances - Stereo is the way to go ;-)

/Shaft

[J.A.W.]

Hi!

I'm a fan of the BN Works series and I agree that they do indeed sound consistent. I've also heard that they are not from the original tapes but I'm not sure. They are not the final word in resolution but the tonal balance is spot on with good bass etc.

I think I have around 50 BN Works and have compared them to RVG in several cases. The RVGs are loud, bright and often with narrowed stereo spread (at least the early ones in JPN and US). It got better though. The Macmasters are OK but "thin" in the bass department and a bit "dull" sounding overall.

The newer TOCJ series 6xxx and up I'm not that impressed with. They ones I got (around 10) sound generally bright, loud and compressed. Not impressed.

If you want the best sounding BLUE note on CD you should look into the recent XRCD24 series. They are mastered with care from the original 2-track analog tapes.

The Soul Station XRCD is WAY better than any other issue on CD (even the BN Works). Just fantastic! We are not talking small imoprovement here but better in all respects. I highly recommend this series - just a shame about the price of $30 a piece ;-(

/Shaft

I agree with what you said about the TOCJ-6xxx and later series; the ones I had sounded bright, loud and compressed to me too, compared with the "Blue Note Works" CDs and the older non-RVG American CDs. The Blue Note XRCDs on the other hand sound excellent to me. They were mastered by Alan Yoshida. They're way overpriced at $30 each, though.

[jazzbo]

I guess we all hear things differently. Yes, I find that many RVGs and JRVGs sound compressed and some bright and a few even harsh. I can do something about those, and many sound splendid, alive and kicking.

I decided about a decade ago to build a system with flexible sound. I have a tube amplifier that sounds more like a solid state amplifier than otherwise, but does allow me to tailor the bias of the tubes and "roll" tubes to tailor the sound. I also have a preamp that has adjustable output up to 5 Volts and of course I can roll tubes there. I also have a tube "buffer amp" that runs a tube at a low bias and fleshes out the sound of thin recordings. With a few adjustments and/or a change of a tube or two I can alter the sound of the system to suit a recording. I find when I dial in the sound for RVGs, there's a realism to the sound, a texture to the sound that gives a full body to the instruments. To me this is the most "REAL" my system sounds, it sounds like I'm in a small club with the band. And despite what I've read from others, there are real dynamics in these recordings. (I'm also a fan of the Concord RVG series; I have every issue in both the Blue Note and the Concord RVG series).

The BN Works cds. . . well I've parted with many of them because I prefer another version where available. They're sort of polite, sedate and a bit boring to my ears. I certainly can understand their appeal to others, especially those who have no way to alter the tone or weight of the soun in their system.

More and more with my flexible system I'm able to step aside from fretting over sonics as I had in the past and just immerse myself in the music. I think it's great we all have different preferences, what counts is we're passionate about the music. That's why I come here. Passion for minutiae and pressings and engineering I can find at the Steve Hoffman forum 24/7.

Edited January 7, 2011 by jazzbo

[J.A.W.]

Just to avoid any misunderstandings: the TOCJ-6xxx and later series Shaft mentioned earlier were mastered by Japanese Toshiba engineers, not by RVG.

[jazzbo]

Yeah.

I also agree that the new XRCDs sound fantastic. I have two, Soul Station and True Blue. I may get more in the future.

[J.A.W.]

I think it's great we all have different preferences, what counts is we're passionate about the music. That's why I come here. Passion for minutiae and pressings and engineering I can find at the Steve Hoffman forum 24/7.

That doesn't necessarily mean we can't discuss those things here.

[jazzbo]

Agreed. What I like about HERE as opposed to THERE is that there's much more discussion about the music or our enjoyment and perception of the music. That's a better balance that I prefer. I didn't at all mean to infer that we can't or shouldn't discuss these things here. Nor do I have any delusions of authority, etc. I read and post at both sites, but I prefer the way we converse and what we converse overall better here. And I was merely stating my personal viewpoint.

[J.A.W.]

Agreed. What I like about HERE as opposed to THERE is that there's much more discussion about the music or our enjoyment and perception of the music.

Agreed.

[shaft]

Agreed. What I like about HERE as opposed to THERE is that there's much more discussion about the music or our enjoyment and perception of the music.

Agreed.

Yeah that's why I hang out here more that the SH forums. I just Loooooove the music side most.

But have to admit that it's great when the audiophile side goes hand in hand with the music :-)

Personal preferences can indeed vary a bit. I can enjoy many different editions of the blue notes and in different setting. Listening to RVG masterings on my portable player is better than on the big rig at home since the treble is a bit rolled off in my earphones and a sharper sound gets more through the ambient noise of being on the go. Same thing with the narrowed stereo spread which can sound just right om earphones.....

Talking about good sound on Blue Note if you ever get the chance listen to the Vinyl 45 rpms on Music Matters. Art blakeys drum rolls on Soul Station are almost scary in their realism! I can't imagine even an original pressing sounding any better (I don't own one alas).

Having many many blue notes on CD I have gotten into buying some blue notes on vinyl which is very interesting. Original pressing are very expensive but later releases on Liberty etc can indeed sound very satisfactory. And don't get me started on the great cover art :-) Well I'm gliding off topic here

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Here, we CAN discuss Steve Hoffman's work, both the good and bad aspects of it. On the Hoffman forums, if you even hint at a negative aspect of something Hoffman did, you'll likely find your posts deleted and your account locked. It's actually a bit sad at how much of this goes on. Steve Hoffman's forums are really all about promoting Steve Hoffman and not really about discussing the good & the bad.

I like several RVGs. I don't like several RVGs. There are some that have too much midrange. Some that seem to have a lot of high end. But there are some, like Pete LaRoca's "Basra", that simply sound phenomenal. I like the new XRCDs as well. However, in the first batch of 4 (which I bought), I had two of the titles on a TOCJ-8xxx CD and to my ears, they were nearly identical. I even had my daughters, with their young ears, listen to a few tracks and they couldn't really find a big difference.

[jazzbo]

Interesting as I've compared one of the two XRCDs I have to TOCJ version and hear a large enough difference for me to prefer the XRCD versions. I hear more closely defined instrumental images and a more dynamic presentation.

Yesterday I ordered another XRCD and the first of the SACDs. I'm anticipating having a pay check soon.

Edited January 8, 2011 by jazzbo

[Peter Friedman]

I have some of the Blue Notes on XRCD and some on SACD. I haven't been able to compare them to each other as I don't believe the same sessions have been released on both XRCD and SACD.

However, it's my opinion that both XRCD and SACD are superior to all other CD releases.

[Dmitry]

I had two of the titles on a TOCJ-8xxx CD and to my ears, they were nearly identical.

TOCJ-8xxx ? Is this a series I missed?