JSngry Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yeah, really. The world of rock music albums is so dependent on studio players & "post-production" that far more often than not the only way to really assess skill is live, and nowadays, even that ain't necessarily "real"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Use3D Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Meg White does suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 to hell with it, i dont care anymore- you can wallow in what you want to wallow in- listen to however little phil you wanna listen to, it'll just mean more phil for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Phil's not a bad drummer (or wasn't, anyway, since he apparently is no longer one). But he became a progressively bland songwriter, IMO. I think that's his crime as far as Genesis goes. Though Banks & Rutherford are guilty of that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Yeah, really. The world of rock music albums is so dependent on studio players & "post-production" that far more often than not the only way to really assess skill is live, and nowadays, even that ain't necessarily "real"... Very true, indeed. Even live they take advantage of numerous electronic enhancements that are available. Bu just had his hands, feet and whatever kit he had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave James Posted November 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Yeah, really. The world of rock music albums is so dependent on studio players & "post-production" that far more often than not the only way to really assess skill is live, and nowadays, even that ain't necessarily "real"... Well that's certainly one of the differences between music then and music now. Can you imagine having to pitch correct someone like Chris Conner or Jo Stafford? I realize that the studio was important even back then, but it was more in terms of instrumental ability than lack of talent being propped up by electronics. Up over and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Well, having said that, I'd be remiss if I didn't note that studio techniques/electronics/etc can also open up talent as well as prop up a lack of it. Ultimately, technology is nothing but a tool, so how that tool is used becomes more important than the tool's mere existence. Also, and I've used this analogy before, the way rock/pop/etc are pieced together is not at all unlike the way movies are made, and I'm ok with that, just as long as the dialogue around the end product recognizes that both are "productions", not "performances", and then we all proceed accordingly. Which we usually don't, either friend or foe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) Phil's not a bad drummer (or wasn't, anyway, since he apparently is no longer one). But he became a progressively bland songwriter, IMO. I think that's his crime as far as Genesis goes. Though Banks & Rutherford are guilty of that, too. Yep. As well, while he may have been a perfectly servicable journeyman-style drummer, the very mention of his name gets up my nose in a splendidly irrational manner. Hey, good luck to anyone who has a mega-hit with a pretty much note-for-note Tamla ripoff. But to have an attitude with it - the sort of thing Bev referred to earlier, plus I recall some particularly smug/arrogant interviews in print and visually - well, stuff that! The thing is, too, with rock music, it's not just the playing that is factor. There's the whole personality thing - that's a big factor, even if unquantifiable. Thus Bonham prolly scores big time, even if detest Zep. And Keith Moon is perfection in this regard AND a great drummer. And I don't even dig the Who! Edited November 1, 2009 by kenny weir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Phil Collins influence on drumming cannot be understated. As for the Blakey connection, listen to Selling England By The Pound by Genesis. You can tell he listened to a lot of jazz drummers, especially Blakey. His Gretsch kit back then was even tuned like Blakey's. He's a great drummer; it's a shame he can no longer play. He could go between different time signatures and tempo changes with ease while singing. He played with a lot of finesse and came up with some really interesting parts. Not to mention his influence, as Aric has already stated, on HOW drums are recorded and their role in the band. He also pioneered using drum machines to augment a real kit. His first three solo albums are great examples of smart pop (with some cool experimentation in there, especially on the first one). To call him a sucky drummer is ridiculous. You may not like him, but he is a great and influential drummer, certainly my favorite rock drummer of all time. Also, the studio is all-pervasive now. You think jazz drummers don't utilize the studio to help their sound either by certain dynamic processing, digital editing, EQ'ing, etc? C'mon. These kind of apple and oranges comparisons are silly, anyway. Judge the music on its own merits. Jazz isn't the end all be all of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 it's interesting, because you ask a typical jazz drummer to play a rock tune, and it comes out like Bar Mitzvah music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I haven't read this thread, but can't help hoping that Neil Pert is mentioned and Carl Palmer isn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Listened to "Wind & Wuthering" last night while doing dishes. Some fantastic drumming on that record and one of my favorite Genesis songs, "Blood on the Rooftops". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Phil Collins influence on drumming cannot be understated. As for the Blakey connection, listen to Selling England By The Pound by Genesis. You can tell he listened to a lot of jazz drummers, especially Blakey. His Gretsch kit back then was even tuned like Blakey's. He's a great drummer; it's a shame he can no longer play. He could go between different time signatures and tempo changes with ease while singing. He played with a lot of finesse and came up with some really interesting parts. Not to mention his influence, as Aric has already stated, on HOW drums are recorded and their role in the band. He also pioneered using drum machines to augment a real kit. His first three solo albums are great examples of smart pop (with some cool experimentation in there, especially on the first one). To call him a sucky drummer is ridiculous. You may not like him, but he is a great and influential drummer, certainly my favorite rock drummer of all time. Also, the studio is all-pervasive now. You think jazz drummers don't utilize the studio to help their sound either by certain dynamic processing, digital editing, EQ'ing, etc? C'mon. These kind of apple and oranges comparisons are silly, anyway. Judge the music on its own merits. Jazz isn't the end all be all of music. Well said, Jim! By the same token, it's also ridiculous to call Bonham or Peart sucky drummers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Phil Collins influence on drumming cannot be understated. As for the Blakey connection, listen to Selling England By The Pound by Genesis. You can tell he listened to a lot of jazz drummers, especially Blakey. His Gretsch kit back then was even tuned like Blakey's. He's a great drummer; it's a shame he can no longer play. He could go between different time signatures and tempo changes with ease while singing. He played with a lot of finesse and came up with some really interesting parts. Not to mention his influence, as Aric has already stated, on HOW drums are recorded and their role in the band. He also pioneered using drum machines to augment a real kit. His first three solo albums are great examples of smart pop (with some cool experimentation in there, especially on the first one). To call him a sucky drummer is ridiculous. You may not like him, but he is a great and influential drummer, certainly my favorite rock drummer of all time. Also, the studio is all-pervasive now. You think jazz drummers don't utilize the studio to help their sound either by certain dynamic processing, digital editing, EQ'ing, etc? C'mon. These kind of apple and oranges comparisons are silly, anyway. Judge the music on its own merits. Jazz isn't the end all be all of music. Nice to read a well supported argument rather than the usual blanket assertions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Phil Collins influence on drumming cannot be understated. As for the Blakey connection, listen to Selling England By The Pound by Genesis. You can tell he listened to a lot of jazz drummers, especially Blakey. His Gretsch kit back then was even tuned like Blakey's. He's a great drummer; it's a shame he can no longer play. He could go between different time signatures and tempo changes with ease while singing. He played with a lot of finesse and came up with some really interesting parts. Not to mention his influence, as Aric has already stated, on HOW drums are recorded and their role in the band. He also pioneered using drum machines to augment a real kit. His first three solo albums are great examples of smart pop (with some cool experimentation in there, especially on the first one). To call him a sucky drummer is ridiculous. You may not like him, but he is a great and influential drummer, certainly my favorite rock drummer of all time. Also, the studio is all-pervasive now. You think jazz drummers don't utilize the studio to help their sound either by certain dynamic processing, digital editing, EQ'ing, etc? C'mon. These kind of apple and oranges comparisons are silly, anyway. Judge the music on its own merits. Jazz isn't the end all be all of music. Nice to read a well supported argument rather than the usual blanket assertions. I agree! I plead guilty to being prisoner of my baseless prejudices. Still don't like him. Mind you, never liked Genesis either, let alone his solo stuff. Mind you, never have dug anything even remotely English AND proggy. As well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Let's lift a pint to the memory of Bonzo. Thanks for many good times Big John. Gallows Pole and Ramble On tonight it will be. Agreed, some clueless shit here folks. Why a "worst" thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Bonham kicked ass. Nobody sounded like him. It's not his fault he inspired a plethora of crappy wannabe's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 "...influence can not be understated" Don't you mean 'can not be overstated', i.e., no matter how big you state his influence to be, it is in reality all that and more? Or am I really not following? don't really have much of an opinion 'bout Phil, one way or the other, don't listen to the right stuff to know how influencial he may in fact be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Apart from Stewie Copeland, are there any good rock drummers? I see them sitting behind a forest of drums (looks like they bought the whole store!), and they mainly play a few thumps on the snare (on 2 and 4) and a few routine licks. Art Blakey or Elvin Jones could make much more volume and variety on only a small trap set (hi-hat, bass, snare, two toms, and two ride cymbals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Rock drummers with some skills and who use them in ways I appreciate: Ringo Charlie Watts (I know many don't think so, but he works for me in that band) Micky Waller Keith Moon Mitch Mitchel that guy from the Hollies - Bobby Elliot? - nice 'n crisp hal Blaine (and lots of other session players, no doubt) on a related note, R&B/blues drummers who play for the tune: Al Jackson Jr all the Motown drummers - too lazy to look up their names to make sure I don't leave any one out James Brown's drummers - Clyde, Jabbo, etc. Fred Below Odie Payne, Jr. Sam Lay (almost forgot) just a little positivity for a change... Edited November 21, 2009 by danasgoodstuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Ringo?? C'mon babee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Apart from Stewie Copeland, are there any good rock drummers? I'd for sure use another example, but hell yes ... although perhaps more than jazz, I'd say it's a matter of personal taste. For me: Bill Kreutzmann (Mickey Hart, too, but Bll's da man ...) Dennis Thompson Roger Hawkins Warren Storm Ed Cassidy Ziggy Modeliste Frank Bua Johnny Vidacovoch - but, hey, he's a jazzer, too. Goes with his (New Orleans) territory ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I see them sitting behind a forest of drums (looks like they bought the whole store!), and they mainly play a few thumps on the snare (on 2 and 4) and a few routine licks. Art Blakey or Elvin Jones could make much more volume and variety on only a small trap set (hi-hat, bass, snare, two toms, and two ride cymbals). As well, this brings up the matter of definition ... yeah, I know there's a whole bunch of routine rock drummers with forest-like kits and so on. But trying to think positive, I gravitate towards brilliance from the '50s, '60s and '70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Yes Ringo, see long thread, esp'ly comments by Jsngry - he had some skills, more than Mo Tucker, and used them to good advantage... definitely agree re Roger Hawkins would add Levon Helm, the king of slow tempos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 I would not say that Ringo had great skills, but the skills he did have, he used greatly. T'aint what you do, etc. Same thing with Charlie Watts, great pocket. Not Al Jackson great, but then again, who was/is? Different musics, different needs, different criteria. It's not all good, but it is all good where it is good, and where that is is for me to say for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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