Collecting......records vs CDs

[porcy62]

One series I do recall having a big impact were those Prestige/Riverside twofers (pre-Fantasyland!). I had the ones that put together most of the first Quintet and some of the early/mid 50s records at a modest price. Loved those - lots of music, detailed liner notes etc.

Sweet memories, I was a boy...a young man.

[Teasing the Korean]

In other news, there are people interested in the records Mile's made in the last ten years of his life.

[mjzee]

In the late '70's, there were Miles Columbias that were hard to find. Besides Jazz Track, the Blackhawks were only available as budget LPs (like Harmony, but not labeled as such). Milestones was only available as re-channeled stereo. I don't think the Plugged Nickel was available. And the titles from Japan and Germany were exceedingly hard to find, and very pricey.

[sidewinder]

I don't think the Plugged Nickel was available. And the titles from Japan and Germany were exceedingly hard to find, and very pricey.

The Japanese Sony issue of the Plugged Nickel LP was the first. Followed by a 2LP set put out in the US and Europe in the early 1980s. That one was a revelation !

The Japanese LPs have actually got easier to source over the past decade.

Edited June 26, 2010 by sidewinder

[Teasing the Korean]

But isn't hunting all tied in with ownership?

Bill Nelson's earlier response was perfect. I would only add that, when I started buying records, the process of discovery was more active than passive. In the digital era, it is too easy to stumble across something, buy it on a whim, and then let it collect dust on your shelf.

I was buying all that space age/mood music stuff long before the internet. Those albums went for a quarter a piece, and there were NO PRINTED GUIDES out there to point you in any direction. There were few people to talk to also. It was all trial and error - A gorgeous record cover may have a lame record inside, and vice versa. You had to keep lists, you had to keep a lot of info in your head. It was very active, and there was lots of time to think, consider, listen, and form your aesthetics. This was the same for most genres of music, though maybe not this extreme. The passive nature of digital communication has in some ways superseded this process.

I wouldn't go back, but there is something I miss about the mystery, the discovery, and the hunt.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

In the late '70's, there were Miles Columbias that were hard to find. Besides Jazz Track, the Blackhawks were only available as budget LPs (like Harmony, but not labeled as such). Milestones was only available as re-channeled stereo. I don't think the Plugged Nickel was available. And the titles from Japan and Germany were exceedingly hard to find, and very pricey.

About the domestics, the point is that they were readily available, maybe not in optimal form, but readily availbe nevertheless.

As for the Japan/German items, they were first issued somewhere in the mid-70s as I recall. It's not like if you got into Miles in, say, 1971, you had access to them. They weren't there! Plugged Nickel didn't come out until, when, 76? 77? Granted, I was in an "unusual" environment", but there were a few people who had the connections & the money to get that stuff. Plugged Nickel was the shit that freaked everybody out. Jazz Record Mart was where most people that I know went for them (this was before the internet & free long distance, so there was, uh....investment involved in the whole process). At one point, there was a waiting list!

I'll tell you what domestic Columbia got kinda hard to find as time went by - the original Carnegie Hall album. Never understood that, as I much preferred it over the Blackhawk sides. Still do.

[John Tapscott]

Something's gained and something's lost in the easy availability today (of recordings and of discographical info). I remember the anticipation of getting my paycheck and going to Third Street Jazz twice a month back in the 70's, looking to see what treasures I never knew had existed, either because they were new releases, or because Jerry Gordon had again performed his magic and found another stash of some long-discontinued title in a warehouse somewhere on the east coast. I'd head home with my three or four new titles and be thrilled. Today, the amount of music coming in and out of my house can be numbing. I have a job where I can listen to music most of the day, so I can process it and keep learning. Will need to have a massive sell-off if I ever get to retire, because I'll never have time to listen like this again.

Yep, I remember those days too (mid 70's - mid' 80's). I worked in the Yonge-Bloor area of Toronto and every 2nd week we got paid. So every 2nd Friday, sometimes by myself and other times with a jazz-loving friend, I would start just a bit north on Yonge Street at the Jazz and Blues Centre (until they moved downtown), then walk south to Sam's and A & A's. It was a great adventure and a real adrenalin rush. The selection between those three stores was really massive. None of the other "attractions" on Yonge Street caught my eye (though they tried hard at times!) I was single-minded in my pursuit of those jazz LP treasures. At the end of the hunt we would sometimes wind up at Bourbon St. or some other club to hear a jazz artist. But either earlier or later I would take the subway home with 10-12 LP's tucked under my arm (some rare; some widely available), and read the liner notes on the way. One thing I remember about those days was that if you saw something you wanted (often a rare import like the Miles Plugged Nickel LP's), you had to buy it THEN, because it would likely never show up again. Today, collecting is not nearly as hard, nor as exciting, IMO. Just enter a recording into Google and you'll find it somewhere. No challenge.

[Dan Gould]

Apparently if we ever revert to a hunter-gatherer society, some of us will be in some deep doo-doo.

[A Lark Ascending]

I'll take the music over the "challenge."

Me too. I'm not convinced my enjoyment of music is any the less for having it much easier to locate.

The only difference between now and 40 years ago is that everything was new and sparkly then because I knew virtually nothing.

There's a difference between having things there when you want them; and using the possibility to buy everything all at once. The sensible listener still has the ability to ration their listening to a performer in order to enjoy it step by step. However much the record companies might want you to swallow it whole in a 'complete works' box.

[JSngry]

I'll take the music over the "challenge."

I'll take'em both, but for different reasons, in different ways, and for different results.

Truthfully, if anybody still wants to combine "the challenge of the search" with "the music", that's what some blogs do, and quite often do well, at least in those terms.

[colinmce]

For reasons of cost, I do a great deal of my buying in the used bins-- both at record stores and thrift shops or consignment stores. That definitely brings you back to "the chase", as there's no telling what will (and will not) turn up. Indeed, I prefer shopping this way precisely because it limits one's options. Sure, I'll buy stuff on the internet or head over and browse the (new) stacks at the local jazz place but it's definitely not as fun and waaay more overwhelming.

Also, let's not underestimate how many things are still out of print these days, even if they were around during the go-go 90s. That still makes for some pretty jjaw-dropping discoveries every now and then.

[David Ayers]

Mile's

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this! It is strange how the misplaced apostrophe is spreading. I now do it frequently when I type. I know what is correct, of course, but I find I unconsciously imitate this increasingly common error, and I do it more and more often. It isn't just an 'error' therefore. Remember that an apron was once a napron...

[A Lark Ascending]

Well, there's a new hobby. Collecting misplaced apostrophes. The 'hunt' should be never-ending.

[BillF]

Well, there's a new hobby. Collecting misplaced apostrophes. The 'hunt' should be never-ending.

Lets' just discuss' record's.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yep, I remember those days too (mid 70's - mid' 80's). I worked in the Yonge-Bloor area of Toronto and every 2nd week we got paid. So every 2nd Friday, sometimes by myself and other times with a jazz-loving friend, I would start just a bit north on Yonge Street at the Jazz and Blues Centre (until they moved downtown), then walk south to Sam's and A & A's. It was a great adventure and a real adrenalin rush. The selection between those three stores was really massive. None of the other "attractions" on Yonge Street caught my eye (though they tried hard at times!) I was single-minded in my pursuit of those jazz LP treasures. At the end of the hunt we would sometimes wind up at Bourbon St. or some other club to hear a jazz artist. But either earlier or later I would take the subway home with 10-12 LP's tucked under my arm (some rare; some widely available), and read the liner notes on the way. One thing I remember about those days was that if you saw something you wanted (often a rare import like the Miles Plugged Nickel LP's), you had to buy it THEN, because it would likely never show up again. Today, collecting is not nearly as hard, nor as exciting, IMO. Just enter a recording into Google and you'll find it somewhere. No challenge.

Exactly my experience and my feelings from that period (I started buying and actually collecting records in 1975 at age 15). During that 1975-85 period (and for a time thereafter) we had at least five (sometimes seven or eight) excellent and - among each other - well-stocked record shops downtown that always carried interesting items in the collectors' departments (jazz, blues, rockabilly, 60s beat, etc.) and you indeed had to snap up the items very fast if you saw something because they might never turn up again afterwards. I remember two cases where it actually took me 15 and 20 years, respectively, in those pre-www and pre-ebay days to finally get a copy of a record I had postponed buying when I saw it in the shop back then (and by the time I had made up my mind it was gone, which I regretted ever after).

Nowadays only one decently stocked (secondhand) record store is left and the CD selections in other chain stores are nothing much to write home about.

So while I am grateful for the new opportunities that the internet has opened up in the past 10+ years and take huge advantage of it, the thrill of making discoveries (that make a lasting impression on you) just isn't there anymore if everything is available that easily (even though lots go OOP too fast or are unre-reissued) and often only a mouse click away. Rummaging through lots and lots of vinyl bins in search of an item of interest just isn't the same like keeping your fingers crossed to see if that Amazon Marketplace seller will live up to his promise of having this or that CD available.

Sometimes I wonder about the availability of the music we have come to take for granted these days. If everything is there to to be bought, do you listen just as intensely to EVERYTHING you can (and do) buy (as opposed to back then when what you found often really was a FIND)?

Yet I am happy, of course, to combine the best of both worlds, i.e. the pleasure of filling gaps of long-sought recordings AND the convenience of being able to fill other gaps much more easily (as long as funds permit) in the CD era, though it often becomes a bit too predictable and assembly line-like. Somehow, as long as you DO find things, searching for items for your collection makes up half of the fun of actually buying them. Which maybe is one of the reasons why I never really felt a desire to get into the CHRONOLOGICAL CLASSICS series wholesale (and used it only to fill a few glaring gaps) and would NEVER have thought of dumping my vinyl of the same recordings in favor of that series - even if that meant that some gaps remained.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[A Lark Ascending]

So while I am grateful for the new opportunities that the internet has opened up in the past 10+ years and take huge advantage of it, the thrill of making discoveries (that make a lasting impression on you) just isn't there anymore if everything is available that easily (even though lots go OOP too fast or are unre-reissued) and often only a mouse click away.

But is it the easy availability that has taken 'the thrill' away? Or the fact that 35 years down the line you (and I!) have so much in so many different areas that we're just much harder to surprise?

Someone coming new to music may have vast amounts available - but where to begin? And finite resources! I think the thrill of discovery will still be there but it will take a different form.

The big difference, for some, is the social aspect of going out and shopping for music. It can be a solitary pursuit on the web where many people talk of the social nature of interacting with shop-keepers/other specialists. I never experienced that a great deal, though I know lots of people did.

But I suspect the pining for the good old days of record buying has more to do with shopping than music. Is it really that different than going out looking for shoes and stumbling on a handbag you must have (apologies for the sexist analogy!)?

In the end this is all part of a much bigger issue. We have been and continue to be part of a consumer culture that conditions us to acquire, to be disatisfied with (or be unfulfilled by) what we have and want more. From our earliest days we are conditioned to collect things - football cards, World Cup minature figurines etc. The idea that the 'pleasure is in the hunt' mentality is exactly what the commercial world wants to instil in us. Traditionally it has been controlled by the release and then withold approach, building up our desires for the next release. It will be interesting to see how the commercial powers settle on this. I can't imagine they are happy with the prospective 'everything available everywhere all the time' model.

It would be interesting to interview someone attending a first performance of a Haydn Symphony c. 1790. Chances are it would be the only time they'd hear it. And I'm sure some of them would tell us their experience was all the more powerful because there was little prospect of ever hearing it again. I'd not want to change places with them.

[mjazzg]

In the end this is all part of a much bigger issue. We have been and continue to be part of a consumer culture that conditions us to acquire, to be disatisfied with (or be unfulfilled by) what we have and want more. From our earliest days we are conditioned to collect things - football cards, World Cup minature figurines etc. The idea that the 'pleasure is in the hunt' mentality is exactly what the commercial world wants to instil in us. Traditionally it has been controlled by the release and then withold approach, building up our desires for the next release. It will be interesting to see how the commercial powers settle on this. I can't imagine they are happy with the prospective 'everything available everywhere all the time' model.

It would be interesting to interview someone attending a first performance of a Haydn Symphony c. 1790. Chances are it would be the only time they'd hear it. And I'm sure some of them would tell us their experience was all the more powerful because there was little prospect of ever hearing it again. I'd not want to change places with them.

I saw The Necks last night and I'm confident that that will be the only time they play the two pieces of music they performed. Not quite Haydn but the excitement of the one-off experience was certainly an integral if perhaps subconscious element of the overall appreciation. Interestingly, I'd enjoyed the live performance for what it was so much that I didn't purchase the CDs I'd looked at prior to the concert - somehow the 'record' of previous one-offs seemed superfluous

Those World Cup figurines were great though, weren't they? How much petrol could Dad afford?!

[A Lark Ascending]

I saw The Necks last night and I'm confident that that will be the only time they play the two pieces of music they performed. Not quite Haydn but the excitement of the one-off experience was certainly an integral if perhaps subconscious element of the overall appreciation. Interestingly, I'd enjoyed the live performance for what it was so much that I didn't purchase the CDs I'd looked at prior to the concert - somehow the 'record' of previous one-offs seemed superfluous.

I seem to recall reading about arguments amongst the various factions at the Khmer Rouge end of the European free jazz spectrum about whether recording a free performance could be tolerated. The performance itself was all - if you weren't 'in the moment' the power was lost.

I think they rationalised it in the end by deciding that recordings 'documented' the music. Not so much items for others to enjoy (or collect!) but a form of minute taking!

[Big Beat Steve]

But is it the easy availability that has taken 'the thrill' away? Or the fact that 35 years down the line you (and I!) have so much in so many different areas that we're just much harder to surprise?

A bit of both, I guess. BUT - I know very well that in the fields of music that I do collect (the vast majority of which really is off the beaten tracks of the "major" or "common" fields of reissues of collectible music - I am not talking about droooling about the umpteenth remastering of this or that BN or KOB reissue ) there still are artists and recordings that would give me the same thrill of discovering just because they have not been available for so long. You keep learning about the music that is of interest to you and the more you learn and the more in-depth knowledge you acquire the more you discover what there is that you have never heard. And the same goes for other fields of collecting. Even if you are not a completist.

The big difference, for some, is the social aspect of going out and shopping for music. It can be a solitary pursuit on the web where many people talk of the social nature of interacting with shop-keepers/other specialists. I never experienced that a great deal, though I know lots of people did.

Neither did I experience that a great deal but occasionally the frown (or knowing smile) upon the sales counter clerks' face as he entered the totals of my "oddball" (by hit parade standards) vinyls was a bit of fun.

In the end this is all part of a much bigger issue. We have been and continue to be part of a consumer culture that conditions us to acquire, to be disatisfied with (or be unfulfilled by) what we have and want more. From our earliest days we are conditioned to collect things - football cards, World Cup minature figurines etc. The idea that the 'pleasure is in the hunt' mentality is exactly what the commercial world wants to instil in us.

This would be true if you were to buy mostly off-the-shelf new items or "current" "name" recordings that are the big and predictable sellers (either pop hit parade fare where the companies want you to crave for the "next" release or "major" and "safe" reissues such as the examples named above). But odd niche market music on collectors' labels that the record stores DID carry DESPITE their (extreme) niche market status? I'd rather rate the experience of shopping around for that kind of (new) goods on the same level like searching secondhand bins at garage sales or fleamarkets for any sort of collectible fleamarket items. Which is why - in my fields of collecting - I've hardly ever made a conscious distinction between buying new or secondhand.

[rostasi]

I'm still confused by what many people here mean by the word "discovering."

So far - and I'm with Bev on this - it appears that it's meaning is solely placed

on the physical object rather than the audible. I'm "discovering" each day -

many times a day - new things that I haven't heard.

A few hours spent at the "records stores" known as WFMU or Last.FM or

the innumerable blogs or record label websites each day yields more musical discoveries for me than,

for example, old days at Tower where I'd just write down an grossly overpriced title

that I couldn't listen to before buying and come home and check online to

see if it was something I'd find interesting.

If yes: I'd buy it at a greatly reduced price - if no: I hadn't wasted my money.

I'm reminded of the days, back in the late 60's/early 70's when you could take an album

into a listening booth and put it on the turntable to check it out beforehand.

When that option was removed years later, you were told by the record companies

what you should dutifully buy - 'cause, you know, everyone else was buying it!

Anyway, I'm discovering more these days - and at a faster and more exciting fun level

than ever before, so I'm baffled by this physical hunt-and-capture that we talk of here.

Latest exciting discovery has been immersing myself in Mahssa mixes these pass few weeks. -

something that I would never find in stores!

[A Lark Ascending]

There was more than just limited availability keeping you from your treasures in the early days of record buying.

I can still remember in the summer of '73 mulling over whether it was worth taking the risk on 'Bitches Brew' and 'Live Evil'. I'd just seen Mahavishnu and had their first two albums and was intrigued by what I read. McLaughlin was the attraction, but I was intrigued by this Miles Davis chap I kept reading about. But my purchasing power was so weak that every buy had to count (and those double LPs were expensive) - so I didn't take the risk. Didn't buy BB until late '76 and found I didn't much like it (that changed 15+ years later).

Maybe when we're struggling on our pensions we'll find ourselves back in the glory days when we had to wait for the treasure.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[kenny weir]

I'm still confused by what many people here mean by the word "discovering."

So far - and I'm with Bev on this - it appears that it's meaning is solely placed

on the physical object rather than the audible. I'm "discovering" each day -

many times a day - new things that I haven't heard.

A few hours spent at the "records stores" known as WFMU or Last.FM or

the innumerable blogs or record label websites each day yields more musical discoveries for me than,

for example, old days at Tower where I'd just write down an grossly overpriced title

that I couldn't listen to before buying and come home and check online to

see if it was something I'd find interesting.

If yes: I'd buy it at a greatly reduced price - if no: I hadn't wasted my money.

I'm reminded of the days, back in the late 60's/early 70's when you could take an album

into a listening booth and put it on the turntable to check it out beforehand.

When that option was removed years later, you were told by the record companies

what you should dutifully buy - 'cause, you know, everyone else was buying it!

Anyway, I'm discovering more these days - and at a faster and more exciting fun level

than ever before, so I'm baffled by this physical hunt-and-capture that we talk of here.

Latest exciting discovery has been immersing myself in Mahssa mixes these pass few weeks. -

something that I would never find in stores!

Yeah, I'm with you. My hunting has reached new levels of pleasure and intensity; just the tools and resources and processes have changed.

[rostasi]

I know what you mean Bev. I remember the afternoon that I bought both Bitches Brew

and Adderley's "Experience in E." The cover of BB and the lengthy tunes of the Adderley

were the elements that brought me to them. That was usually my criteria

in those days. I remember buying the first releases on ICP in the late 60's

for the very same reason(s) and the music kept me going back for more.

Now, young people can listen to BB before making the leap.

[Big Beat Steve]

I'm still confused by what many people here mean by the word "discovering."

Don't you think that's because not all people are and think all alike? Isn't that what the essence of our species is all about?

So far - and I'm with Bev on this - it appears that it's meaning is solely placed

on the physical object rather than the audible. I'm "discovering" each day -

many times a day - new things that I haven't heard.

Is there a contradiction? Isn't it so that "discovering" can also include the discovery of a track or session you "discover" in a discography, in a book or article on an artist or a musical style that makes you curious enough to go out and track this down for you to buy? The physical "discovery" of the actual recording is just ONE (though essential) aspect of your hunt and search for your own preferred "collectible" items. But don't you think this boils down to the same thing after all? I for one cannot see any basic difference between discovering something on radio or maybe in some written source first and then "discovering" the actual product in a shop (or - today - in an online catalog).

I'm reminded of the days, back in the late 60's/early 70's when you could take an album

into a listening booth and put it on the turntable to check it out beforehand.

When that option was removed years later, you were told by the record companies

what you should dutifully buy - 'cause, you know, everyone else was buying it!

Do you actually think seasoned collectors such as us here are really gullible enough to fall for THAT? Sorry but THAT "argument" just doesn't hold in our circles where it in almost every case is a matter of minority niche releases or reissues on labels or release channels usually overlooked altogether by the record COMPANIES.

The turntable thing was nice (I experienced the tail end of it in my earliest collecting days too) but it wasn't always decisive to me anyway, though i cannot have been that knolwedgeable of the entire spectrum of music yet. Very often I would have bought the record anyway just because i had a pretty good idea of what to expect within the genre that music was part of, and besides, way back it was a matter of taking the whole LP or leaving it. As long as the gems among the individual tracks outweighed the duds it was a deal. And haven't you ever experienced that it took you some time to warm up to what you initially might have considered to be "duds" (and later would not have wanted to be without)? You may accuse some around here of overromanticizing the discovery and purchase of the physical object in a store. Maybe you are right but OTOH to me it looks like you are overromanticizing the listening booth experience of listening to this or that track over not-so-high fi headphones in quite a rush (unless you knew the shop clerk very well).

Anyway, I'm discovering more these days - and at a faster and more exciting fun level

than ever before, so I'm baffled by this physical hunt-and-capture that we talk of here.

Again, no contradiction here IMHO. If digitized donwloading is good enough for you then so be it but this isn't the only option. You know there still are SOME where the actual PHYSICAL product (as embodied by the good old vinyl in its sleeve) was an entity that was to be considered as a unit, not just as an expendable packaging of some digitized mujsical product. Which would not rule out the convenience of downloads or CD-R's for those who want the sounds only either.

[rostasi]

Is there a contradiction? Isn't it so that "discovering" can also include the discovery of a track or session you "discover" in a discography, in a book or article on an artist or a musical style that makes you curious enough to go out and track this down for you to buy? The physical "discovery" of the actual recording is just ONE (though essential) aspect of your hunt and search for your own preferred "collectible" items. But don't you think this boils down to the same thing after all? I for one cannot see any basic difference between discovering something on radio or maybe in some written source first and then "discovering" the actual product in a shop (or - today - in an online catalog).

I'm not against discovering - that should be clear from my post.

I would just rather discover music thru audible means than thru just purely physical ones.

Yes, my choice, my desire, but this is what we do here on these forums - state our opinions

in relation to others.

Maybe you are right but OTOH to me it looks like you are overromanticizing the listening booth experience of listening to this or that track over not-so-high fi headphones in quite a rush (unless you knew the shop clerk very well)

No over-romanticising, just stating, for example, that if I'd pick up "The Court of the Crimson King"

and look at the cover and expect some kind of brutally loud in-your-face experience without hearing it

and get it home and find that 75% of it is deep mellotron ooze and a quarter hour of plinks and plonks,

I might've gotten quite pissed!

Again, no contradiction here IMHO. If digitized donwloading is good enough for you then so be it but this isn't the only option. You know there still are SOME where the actual PHYSICAL product (as embodied by the good old vinyl in its sleeve) was an entity that was to be considered as a unit, not just as an expendable packaging of some digitized mujsical product. Which would not rule out the convenience of downloads or CD-R's for those who want the sounds only either.

I'm not just speaking about downloads. We can easily hear or buy things without downloading.

We can still buy physical product - CD or LP or... I'm just saying if I had a physical product in my hands

that I don't know anything about, in the old days you had to hope - have faith - that you spent your money wisely.

Nowadays, you, more often than not, don't have to do that. The "discovery" is online

and you can "discover" more - many times more for each physical discovery

that you'd make in a flea market, for instance.