I hate 99.9999% of all rap!!!!!

[BERIGAN]

Kelis, she is an anomaly! An Aberration if you will....check out the video! So simple a song, and yet,...

http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c3gb7816-8657,00.html#

[Uncle Skid]

Well, I actually *like* approximately 9.4319% of all rap, but I don't see what's so special about this one*.... Am I missing something??

*(Aside from her big breasteses and ass-cleavage)

Seriously, this just seems like most other rap videos, with the difference that the almost naked female is rapping instead of hanging out in the hot tub.

[Jazzmoose]

Damn, Berigan; if you're sure you hate that much of all rap, you've listened to a hell of a lot more of it than I have! Maybe you should give up and just pass...

[Jazzdog]

I think what Berigan really hates is RAP and not Hip Hop which is more along the lines of what Kellis is.

RAP is what rappers do, Hip Hop is that style of music in which Rappers rap to. A distinction must be made. Most of the contemporary R&B stuff like Kellis and Beyonce is actually Hip Hop, which is a genre or a style of music. Just like the term Jazz connotates all styles of instrumentally based R&B as well as the music most of us prefer to listen to.

Sorry if I am picking nits here. Just trying to make sure we are all on the same page.

[Jim Alfredson]

The problem with modern R&B or hip hop or whatever you want to call it is a complete lack of song-writing skills. Even Musiq, who everybody touts and being "influenced by Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder", etc... even his tunes are just a simple four bar phrase repeated ad nauseum. The same four bars serves as verse, chorus, bridge, etc. It requires no craft what-so-ever.

Sure, the beats are cool. But the stuff gets boring after you're into the second verse because you know that nothing else is going to happen. That's it. That's the song. Get a funky beat going for four bars, loop it, sing some made-up melody over the top, have a chorus and boom, there's your song. It's pitiful.

Influence by Stevie, eh? Go back and listen to how Stevie actually constructs a song and doesn't sing melisma over every square inch of it...

[Alexander]

I actually just did a report in my Ed Psych class on MTV and the targeting of American teenagers by marketers. "Milkshake" was one of the videos I used when I presented my paper. I recall my remarks were something along the lines of: "When I saw this video, I wondered if I was expected to stuff dollar bills into my TV's g-string."

[BERIGAN]

Jazzdog, you are right! The rap I have liked in the past has been more music related....lets see if I can make any sense here. Meaning that the Rapping is not more important than the music itself. That is if there is music in the background, and not just beats. Which means B3-er is right as well! Most of the rap I hear today is amazingly unimaginative, they get a simple hook and beat it to death. And the rappers themselves seem to get worse every day! Just listen to their voices! Where are the RUN-DMCs Chuck Ds, the Young MCs(you know what I mean) voices that you recognized right away, and were not so damn flat sounding! These guys really do sound like they are drug dealers with no talent who just threw enough money someone's way to get a record deal, and a video produced.

People who are a little more creative IMO have been able to do something creative in a genre that seems fairly limited. And I guess those folks have been more R&B in their sound, like Missy Elliot, she seems more talented than a dozen other big rap/hip-hop artists combined!

Just to confuse the subject, I have been watching the VH1 Special, Driven on Jay-Z, and it kept referring to hip hop as being totally separate from R&B, which I don't get! Like talking about a tour Jay-Z put on being the first all hip hop tour, with no R&B artists!

Oh, the Kelis song does suffer the simple , repetitive hook that I usually hate in most rap songs, but it seems to have something else that she brings to the tune, and it ain't just her tits, you can't hear tits!

[Jazz]

The problem with modern R&B or hip hop or whatever you want to call it is a complete lack of song-writing skills. Even Musiq, who everybody touts and being "influenced by Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder", etc... even his tunes are just a simple four bar phrase repeated ad nauseum. The same four bars serves as verse, chorus, bridge, etc. It requires no craft what-so-ever.

Sure, the beats are cool. But the stuff gets boring after you're into the second verse because you know that nothing else is going to happen. That's it. That's the song. Get a funky beat going for four bars, loop it, sing some made-up melody over the top, have a chorus and boom, there's your song. It's pitiful.

Influence by Stevie, eh? Go back and listen to how Stevie actually constructs a song and doesn't sing melisma over every square inch of it...

AMEN to that! Thanks for saying that B-3er. This is my problem with most POPULAR hip hop that I've heard, which isn't much.

The thing about me is, I can actually be pretty forgiving of repetitiveness if I know I'm about to listen to pop music. But come on, four bars for a whole 3-5 minute song? Even with Hip Hop or Rap, all I need to not hate it is to have some kind of development, ANY kind of development with the harmony, and a tiny bit of melody. If they want me to like it though, they have to have decent harmonic progression, melodic development, and some element of the blues doesn't hurt either.

Along these lines, I'm actually thinking of getting GURU's first Jazzmatazz. Anyone have any opinions on it? Should I skip it?

[Kari S]

Along these lines, I'm actually thinking of getting GURU's first Jazzmatazz. Anyone have any opinions on it? Should I skip it?

Well, I'd say that Guru and the guy who makes his beats (Dj Premier) are one of the more creative artists in hip hop. Plus there's people like Donald Byrd, Hancock and Branford in there.

---

Back to the topic...

In mainstream hip hop today, the current trend seems to be - instead of samples - that very scarse and basic production style of "The Neptunes" (Pharrell Williams & Chad Hugo), who have produced that Kelis track in question (it sounds like it anyway, I'm not sure). But I think that has also gone a bit too simple for its own good - there weren't even any chords in that track, just a drum beat, the vocal and some synth riff.

And to comment to that what B3-er said, I thoroughly agree. Like you said, it requires no craft what-so-ever, and the worst thing is - that stuff sells like ice cream in hell and the guys producing/rapping over it are millionares overnight. Well - I'm glad it now seems that the era of mainstream pop-hip hop is winding down a bit. There's only so much you can say about pimps, the booty and ho's. (Or so I thought!)

By the way B3-er and others who are fed up with mainstream-R&B, you should check out this young guy called Donnie (website here). The guy sings like that another Donny and Stevie combined, but he also writes proper songs. I bought his debut cd, "Colored Section" and was glad I did.

[Rooster_Ties]

I don't think Rap is necessarily bad or good, it all depends on the tune and the artist. I don't listen to all that much Rap, but I do dig the Beastie Boys quite a bit (especialy since "Paul's Boutique" in '89, and Public Enemy back 10 or 12 years ago too.

For me, the best Rap is what's layed down on top of creative use of sampling, where parts of totally disparate sources (hooks, beats, whatever), are combined to create something new and interesting.

I would venture to say that at least 80%, probably 90% of "popular" Rap doesn't do all that much for me, but that's not because it's Rap, per se. Puff "Daddy/P. Diddy/whatever-his-name-is" doesn't do a damn thing for me, but I do find Busta Rhymes to be really fly, and Missy Elliott is pretty dope too. (I'm stuggling with the lingo here, guys, cut me some slack!! )

I guess, then, a good Rapper, rapping over boring tracks - usually isn't enough to make me take much notice. And a bad Rapper rapping over great tracks probably doesn't either. For me, it usually takes both.

That said, I think I only own about 4 or 5 CD's that are primarily Rap, and I think all but maybe one of them are by the Beastie Boys. I just have other spending priorities (although I have been thinkin' about keeping my eyes out for some used Public Enemy, circa 1991).

[Tjazz]

I'm starting to listen to hip-hop and rap.

Any recommendations?

Ludacris?

Outkast?

Edited December 22, 2003 by Tjazz

[Rooster_Ties]

Outkast?

Whatever is that most recent disc by Outkast, it seems to be on EVERYBODY'S year-end list. I mean, the Kansas City Star just did a "year in music" feature in last Friday's entertainment section, and they talked to 15 or 20 local music officiandos, and I think 75% of them had the Outkast disc on their lists.

[Jazzmoose]

Gee, Rooster, to quote one of my musical "guilty pleasures", you're pretty fly for a white guy!

[Kari S]

Outkast?

Whatever is that most recent disc by Outkast, it seems to be on EVERYBODY'S year-end list. I mean, the Kansas City Star just did a "year in music" feature in last Friday's entertainment section, and they talked to 15 or 20 local music officiandos, and I think 75% of them had the Outkast disc on their lists.

It's a double cd called "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below". Talk about being one of the most hyped cds of the year. Outkast consists of two people, Big Boi and Andre Benjamin aka Andre 3000 (...these rap names, sheesh ). The first disc is quite straightforward hip hop and the second cd is a mix of psychedelic rock/pop and soul. There's even a version of "My Favorite Things", kind of like the Trane version but with a drum'n'bass beat. And with crappy solos, naturally.

I've listened to both cds once, and quite frankly don't get what all the fuss is about. There's maybe a couple of ok tracks on both cds. That Andre Benjamin guy has been compared to Prince. An obvious inspiration for him, with the exception that Prince can sing and write great songs (or at least he used to.)...

But as far as originality and creativity go, Outkast are definitely one of the tops, no doubt about it. For Tjazz I'd suggest that you start with these following; these artists are some of the most high praised and creative.

"Old school":

- A Tribe Called Quest (disbanded, recommended!)

- Guru & DJ Premier

- Mos Def

More recent

- Nas

- Tupac Shakur

- Outkast

- Common

- The Roots (recommended!)

[undergroundagent]

Here's my top 15 rap albums you should listen too...

Boogie Down Productions "Criminal Minded"

Boogie Down Productions "By All Means Necessary"

Eric B & Rakim "Paid in Full"

Public Enemy "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back"

Marley Marl "In Control Vol. 1"

Diamond D "Stunts, Blunts & Hiphop"

Main Source "Breakin' Atoms"

Outkast "ATliens"

Mobb Deep "Infamous"

Nas "Illmatic"

A Tribe Called Quest "People's Instictive Travels & the Paths of Rhythm"

A Tribe Called Quest "Low End Theory"

Gang Starr "Step in the Arena"

De La Soul "Stakes is High"

Organized Konfusion "Stress: The Extiction Agenda"

Enjoy!

Edited December 22, 2003 by undergroundagent

[chris]

I always find something interesting on every Outkast album I have heard. I recommend them. I also second recommendations for A Tribe Called Quests and the Roots...

Someone on Organissimo had a pretty funny quote about the difference/non-difference between hip-hop and rap but I can't recall it now...

[Jazz]

A Tribe Called Quest "Low End Theory"

Low End Theory didn't quite do it for me. It started off sounding like it was going to be interesting, but I ended up being bored. I'm willing to give it a few more listens before I really decide though...

And I'm sorry, no one is going to make the argument that laying down one beat in 4 and repeating it verbatim for 3-5 minutes takes any kind of musical craft. What's the craft, coming up with a 4 beat rhythmic motive that sounds like someone's "style"? At that point, there's not much music happening and more poetry/lyrical emphasis.

[Gary]

I'm starting to listen to hip-hop and rap.

Any recommendations?

Ludacris?

Outkast?

I have the new Ludacris CD ' Chiken & Beer ' its the most foul mouthed ,sexist , non pc album I've heard for a long time.

I love it & wholeheartiedly recommend it - its funny as f*ck.

[Noj]

Outkast does use samples, but their production team Organized Noize was doing what the Neptunes are doing now years ago.

The Roots are also different production-wise, as they incorporate live instruments.

[Alexander]

Missy Elliot

I'm quite fond of Missy Elliot. She's got a lot of talent and a VERY quirky sense of humor, which I appreciate in hip-hop. Like hard rock, too much rap is self-important. I like the guys who can laugh at themselves, which is one of the reasons I like both Outkast and Ludacris. Both of them (in their videos, if not in their songs) send up the conventions of hip-hop (the booze, the girls) while embracing them at the same time. I haven't heard all of "Speakerboxx/The Love Below," but I liked both of the singles I've heard off of that album ("The Way You Move" and "Hey Ya"). "Stand Up" by Ludacris is a PHAT track with a great hook ("When I move you move (just like that?)") and a lot of energy. I guess the attributes that make a great hip-hop artist are as often extra-musical as they are musical: rappers benefit from having an outsized personality (which is why I like Snoop Dogg but not 50 Cent, who sounds embalmed) and a sense of humor.

[chuckyd4]

FWIW, I wrote a review of the latest Outkast here, which deals with it as serious art. I'm guessing some people here may not get into it, but it's important if you're interested in what creative younger black artists are doing.

Edited December 22, 2003 by chuckyd4

[jacman]

Dr. Dre-The Chronic

De La Soul-3 Feet High And Rising

Digable Planets-Reachin' (a new refutation of time and space)

Run DMC-Self Titled & King of Rock

these are a few of my favorite things.

[BERIGAN]

Outkast , how can I forget these guys, since they are from the ATL and all! I loved a remix of B.O.B. (Bombs over Baghdad) that got lots of airplay on the "Alternative" station here, 99X in 2000. Their rap is original, hyperfast, and they are not afraid of taking chances...their latest single is getting played to death right now....

N.E.R.D. (I didn't know about the Neptunes until just reading about them at allmusic) had a few songs that got airplay, including the wonderful(Did I just type wonderful?) song Lapdance. Pharrell Williams I do believe is a genius, or damn close. I saw him on a VH1 special on Ol' Dirty Bastard, take a quite wasted looking Ol' Dirty Bastard, doing a lame job on a tune, and ramp him and the song up a few notches and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. (Rappers say things like that, right?) Hey, what song and album was Pharrell Williams singing on with that amazing falsetto, anyway?

[Jazz]

What's the craft, coming up with a 4 beat rhythmic motive that sounds like someone's "style"? At that point, there's not much music happening and more poetry/lyrical emphasis.

That's it, yes.

There is more to it than that. Listening to a beat from Timbaland or the Neptunes or whomever is more than simple beats. It is about textures, embellishments, etc. How many pop music fans do you know that say jazz sounds the same, when we are able to tell tenor sax players apart on the radio?

Doest this 'craft' argument apply to the hardcore scene? Three chords and a bunch of shouting? Pop songs with I-IV-V? Blues with twelve bars? We could say the same thing about some of Morton Feldman's longer works. Just the same phrase over and over, but you KNOW that it is Feldman.

To me, the craft is being able to come up with something that sounds distinctive, and this Kelis song does just that.

I guess we're just going to have to disagree, Clinton. Although, if you can explain to me what I'm missing in the textures and embellishments I would be willing to think about it. From what I mostly have heard (which I admit is not alot) the arrangements are basically the same and embellishment is either non existent or on a very small scale: As in, "oh he hit that one melody note on the up this time" kind of embellishment.

And yes, I think the craft argument applies equally well to all forms of music. If a hardcore song has 3 chords and no melody, guess what? I'm not gonna like it. If they can fit a tiny bit of development in there then I'm on board. I'll give you an example: Rage Against The Machine, especially the first two albums. Sure there was screaming, but there was also a tiny bit of melody (in the distorted guitars) and I thought Zach did a great job building tension in the song (i.e. development) up to the moments where he would let loose. There were also pretty defined roles for each instrument, which is another complaint I have about the rap I've heard.

Guess what else? Pop songs with I-IV-V twelve bar are also boring, unless they put something interesting in there. They've been done to death and are still being done to death. This is not to say I don't listen to pop or don't like it. I do, but I don't call it art and I don't compare it with Jazz. Jazz is an art, music like that is a formula (i.e. CRAFT). I don't think it is too much to ask that MUSICIANS learn and understand the CRAFT of music that has preceded them by 600 or more years and at least make passing nods to it. If they are unwilling to do so, then they are insulting that legacy and not taking it seriously.

Furthermore, in my view of aesthetics, "distinctiveness" is only one part of what makes something interesting. I don't care if I can tell that it is Joy Division playing unless they have something that is going to musically engage me. "Hey I can tell it's Joy Division playing, but none of their music interests me..."

Anyways, it's always fun to get into this discussion. There's always people on both sides of this fence.

[Noj]

Within the patterns of CRAFT, selectivity and editing play a huge role.

Also, when sampling was allowed to run rampant, rap songs would contain multiple samples and had more textures to keep them from becoming boring.