2010-2011 Hot Stove Thread

[Matthew]

All the Yankees had to do last Summer was sweeten the pot just a little and Lee would already be in pinstripes. I hope when they do their post-mortems, someone is held accountable for that decision. All we have to show for this off season is the signing of a 37 year-old over the hill shortstop for twice as much and twice as long as he's worth. As I said before, note the time. The descent has begun. Nuclear winter is upon us.

Feeling like 1965?

[ghost of miles]

All the Yankees had to do last Summer was sweeten the pot just a little and Lee would already be in pinstripes. I hope when they do their post-mortems, someone is held accountable for that decision. All we have to show for this off season is the signing of a 37 year-old over the hill shortstop for twice as much and twice as long as he's worth. As I said before, note the time. The descent has begun. Nuclear winter is upon us.

Feeling like 1965?

Not quite that, and I don't think it will ever be that bad again. But without Lee or Greinke (and again, without Lee, it's also more likely that we're without Pettitte in 2011), we may be in for a several-year-long "rebuilding" stretch while the Core 4 retires and the A-Rod/Jeter contracts run out. So be it, if so. It'll still be a pleasure to watch these guys play their final years (and I really do hope we get a chance to say goodbye to Pettitte over the course of a season... really, in terms of length of career and success, the greatest Yankee pitcher of the Steinbrenner era). And the 2009 championship run was beautiful, one I'll be savoring for years. Who's to say, it's baseball and certainly the Yankees are almost always in the running, in one way or another... but the sport is bigger than your favorite team, and if we fall into a playoff-less groove for a few years, well, ain't nothin' even Yankee fans haven't gone through before (so sayeth fan veteran of the 1982-94 years, which still pale in comparison to what fans of other teams have endured). I feel lucky to have seen the championship years that I have.

[Brad]

1965 is a bit extreme. I have never been a huge Cashman fan and he bungled the Jeter negotiations, leaving Jeter ticked off. You can lay the Lee situation at his doorstep also. Never understood why Stick didn't stick around unless it was voluntary

[ghost of miles]

Everybody over at Lone Star Ball just went nuts over Chuck Greenberg's 8 p.m. CT conference call, which turned out to simply be, "We made an offer to Lee and he's weighing his options."

In the meantime, Twitter updates from Tripping Olney! (As in ESPN's Buster Olney--I love some of these fake/parody Twitter accounts):

Heard this: Cliff Lee is signing with the Jimi Hendrix Experience

EDIT: just read through the past 48 hours of TrippingOlney's tweets...

Edited December 10, 2010 by ghost of miles

[Tim McG]

Seven years for Lee is nuts, I don't care who pays it.

Two words:

Barry Zito.

Been there, done that.

[Dan Gould]

Seven years for Lee is nuts, I don't care who pays it.

Two words:

Barry Zito.

Been there, done that.

ERA+ Last Three Seasons before Free Agency:

Barry Zito: 102 113 116

Cliff Lee: 168 131 130

Zito was a stupid signing not for the years or the money but for the fact that he had turned into a barely better-than-league-average pitcher.

The last three years, Cliff Lee has been one of the very best pitchers in the majors. Like the money thrown at C.C. Sabathia, it will be money well-spent for at least 4 years, barring injury.

Zito's money was just pissed away at a mediocrity.

[Quincy]

I'm not believing anything until I hear it with my own two eyes, but...although I will be glad to have him, if he does stay, I'm still needing some convincing that the guy's got that "hunker down" mentality over the course of a full season.

See 2008.

Either way - Cliff Lee owes us two World Series victories. Definitely one. No matter how that karmic kaleidoscope plays out, that debt must be paid!

He was lights out fantastic to get your there. Just take that dominating victory over the Yankees as your World Series for now. It's worked for Seattle fans for 15 years.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I know about '08. His one truly great season. Kinda my point...

As for the WS "settling" thing...no, thanks. A debt's a debt.

[Tim McG]

Seven years for Lee is nuts, I don't care who pays it.

Two words:

Barry Zito.

Been there, done that.

ERA+ Last Three Seasons before Free Agency:

Barry Zito: 102 113 116

Cliff Lee: 168 131 130

Zito was a stupid signing not for the years or the money but for the fact that he had turned into a barely better-than-league-average pitcher.

The last three years, Cliff Lee has been one of the very best pitchers in the majors. Like the money thrown at C.C. Sabathia, it will be money well-spent for at least 4 years, barring injury.

Zito's money was just pissed away at a mediocrity.

Good point.

But the Giants are still stuck with him for three more years of that seven year deal [thanks, Peter Magowan]. I just don't get why they won't cut their losses and release him.

[ghost of miles]

All the Yankees had to do last Summer was sweeten the pot just a little and Lee would already be in pinstripes. I hope when they do their post-mortems, someone is held accountable for that decision. All we have to show for this off season is the signing of a 37 year-old over the hill shortstop for twice as much and twice as long as he's worth. As I said before, note the time. The descent has begun. Nuclear winter is upon us.

Well, whatever happens with Lee now (and I still think he's going to land with the Rangers), I'm glad we didn't give up Jesus Montero for him. As lame as our offense was in the postseason, I'm not even sure having Mr. Lee on our side and not on the Rangers would have made that much difference (and we certainly would have been facing Tampa Bay in the ALCS, not the Rangers...Mr. Jsngry, Texas gets nowhere near the ALCS without Cliff Lee this past season, whatever one's thoughts on his World Series performance).

But I am irked right now by what's proven, so far, to be a very mediocre offseason performance by the Yankee front-office. First the Jeter talks blew up in a way that I fault both sides for, leaving us with a disgruntled icon... and now we're just sitting around periodically upping our ridiculous contract offer to Lee, while the Rangers keep sending contingents to sweet-talk him all things Texas. Why hasn't Cashman gone down to Arkansas a second time, with Hal Steinbrenner/Joe Giradi/CC and whoever else might help the cause in tow? Are the Yankees advising Lee on things he might be able to do to lessen the impact of the NY state income tax? Are they quietly selling him on the Yankee aura/cachet, their perpetual will to contend, what being on the team might mean to his professional legacy, etc.? (Those are some of NY's selling points, vs. Texas' admittedly very strong proximity/culture attractions.) So far, all I've read are the published reports that CC has "talked" to him, plus rumors that CC has also talked to Cliff's wife as well, in an attempt to persuade them both to come to New York. It's clear that Lee feels a pull towards Texas... why does NY seem to be doing next to nothing on the personal courting front, while Nolan Ryan and crew are pouring on a charm offensive? That's what's honking me off right now. NY can't expect money alone to carry the day, if Texas' "menu of offers" gets them within shouting range of NY's offer minus the state income tax difference.

If Lee does indeed stay with Texas, then this postseason, as of now, will be an absolute bust, and NY will be in a near-panic mode trying to get a decent starter through trade. (Plus, noted again, that Andy Pettitte may be less likely to come back for a final season if Lee doesn't sign with NY.)

Edited December 11, 2010 by ghost of miles

[paul secor]

I hope that Lee signs with Texas. Let the Rangers eat the last years on his contract after he burns out. I do hope that Andy Pettitte comes back but, if not, I'd like to see the Yanks give a couple of young pitchers a shot and see what happens. Might be interesting - certainly more interesting than constantly trying to buy a championship.

[Patrick]

And the 2009 championship run was beautiful, one I'll be savoring for years. Who's to say, it's baseball and certainly the Yankees are almost always in the running, in one way or another... but the sport is bigger than your favorite team, and if we fall into a playoff-less groove for a few years, well, ain't nothin' even Yankee fans haven't gone through before (so sayeth fan veteran of the 1982-94 years, which still pale in comparison to what fans of other teams have endured). I feel lucky to have seen the championship years that I have.

Nicely stated. It's a bit rich [pun intended] to hear any Yankee fan complaining about a "nuclear winter" coming soon because they couldn't get the best free agent available. Move to KC, or Pittsburgh, or Houston, or Milwaukee, or Oakland, or ... Cleveland. (to name a few)

An extremely successful and long run, 1995 - 2010. Isn't it reasonable that it might end sometime soon? Or is there some big market (or NY) birth right?

I think I've witnessed the Indians golden era of the past 60 years and the next 10 years or more. It was 1995-2001. They lost two World Series, one in ultra heartbreaking fashion. Has there been recent Yankee trauma more severe than the '97 Series for Tribe fans? Indians got lucky by having a ton of young players blossom at exactly the same time, but that's the only way for small mkt teams. Stars mostly aligned again in 2007, ...but they didn't have Cliff Lee in good health, so they had only a little fun with Joba and then the Sawx. All the stars need to align. If Manny, Thome, and Lofton arrived as young Yankees, I somehow think their first (and second for Thome) free agent contracts would have been with the Yankees. Such is life for a tightwad owner in a small or mid-market.

Vent over.

Who are the Indians pursuing in free agency you ask? Anyone familiar with catcher Paul Phillips? Yes, the fellow who batted .217 in 12 games for the Rockies last season (and .238 at AAA Colorado Springs). Phillips would get an invitation to big league camp and compete against Luke Carlin and Lou Marson for the backup spot behind Carlos Santana. I'm so excited.

[ghost of miles]

Hank Steinbrenner needs to STFU. Thanks, Hank--if Cliff Lee needed just a nudge to fall onto the Rangers' side of the fence, I think you may have provided it.

[Brad]

What did Hank say? I've always liked Hal: he doesn't make a lot of headlines but goes about his business quietly. Hank is more like George. I assume Cashman is left generally alone. If not, then I have to wonder about the thought processes. They do have capable pitching without Lee and maybe the new pitching coach can turn things around.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Brad

[JSngry]

Mr. Jsngry, Texas gets nowhere near the ALCS without Cliff Lee this past season, whatever one's thoughts on his World Series performance).

The only thought is that he owes us and will pay his debt, The more creative, the better.

It would behoove Mr. Lee to be aware that his karma will never be right until this debt is paid. That is what it would behoove Me. Lee to realize.

[ghost of miles]

What did Hank say? I've always liked Hal: he doesn't make a lot of headlines but goes about his business quietly. Hank is more like George. I assume Cashman is left generally alone. If not, then I have to wonder about the thought processes. They do have capable pitching without Lee and maybe the new pitching coach can turn things around.

I agree w/you re: Hal. Hank Steinbrenner to AP earlier today:

“For somebody of that stature, it would certainly behoove him (Lee) to be a Yankee, which would probably be for the rest of his career. I think that would be a great move for him but, of course I’m prejudiced.”

It's the "would certainly behoove him" part that I find insulting and stupid. Y'know, you can sell the whole idea of Yankee mystique/tradition/lineage without sounding like an entitled, arrogant, condescending buffoon. Mo Rivera, Derek Jeter, and Andy Pettitte are great examples of it. Hank Steinbrenner is not.

Meanwhile, here's Jon Heyman's latest report:

Yankees, Rangers play waiting game for Lee

...which makes me think perhaps NY isn't quite out of the running yet (though I love how how all of these baseball execs/insiders are quoted making such confident predictions about Lee's ultimately being in pinstripes, when none of them probably have a single clue about his and his family's priorities, concerns, etc.). One positive note for Yankee fans--Heyman claims the state income tax issue has been considerably overblown:

The idea that the money can be made up via decreased taxes in Texas doesn't appear to have much merit. Beyond the fact that Lee is an Arkansas resident, he'd only be responsible for New York taxes for the 81 home dates each year. Over the course of a seven-year contract, the tax differential would be expected to be no more than $1 to $2 million.

Interesting--is this accurate on how Lee's state residency and tax situation would play out?

Edited December 11, 2010 by ghost of miles

[ghost of miles]

Mr. Jsngry, Texas gets nowhere near the ALCS without Cliff Lee this past season, whatever one's thoughts on his World Series performance).

The only thought is that he owes us and will pay his debt, The more creative, the better.

It would behoove Mr. Lee to be aware that his karma will never be right until this debt is paid. That is what it would behoove Me. Lee to realize.

He owes you? I just don't get this. He almost single-handedly defeated the Rays for you guys! Look, I'll totally understand if Lee ends up signing with the Rangers. And I certainly understand why his teammates and the new ownership team want so badly for him to stay. But really, I'm not sure how his four-month stay with Texas has put him in any kind of debt to them. Is this all stemming from unhappiness over his performance in the World Series? He had one bad inning in Game 1 and one bad pitch in Game 5. The Rangers lost two other games to the Giants in which non-Lee Texas pitchers started. And again, without Lee, no way the Rangers beat the Rays in the ALDS. Not even sure, frankly, that they could have knocked off the Yankees in the ALCS, given how morale-crushing Game 3 was for NY.

[JSngry]

The debt must be paid for as long as it remains unpaid. Then, after that, no more. He can then dehoove himself of the obligation.

But not before.

[Brad]

I agree with you about Jeter, Rivera and Pettite. That's what every athlete should aspire to.

I know I rag on the Yanks but I do hope Lee signs with them.

I just saw an article in the Times saying that the Rangers have oil money behind them. If those two people ante up, that could spell trouble for NY unless they can somehow NY is the place to be. I kind of think that sells itself but it doesn't sound like the case here. Long term, I think he's better off here, especially ifche considers the number of titles he could win.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Brad

[ghost of miles]

The debt must be paid for as long as it remains unpaid. Then, after that, no more. He can then dehoove himself of the obligation.

But not before.

Well, OK, but I think maybe you should take it up with TrippingOlney!

Edited December 11, 2010 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

This trip is one way - no need to rehoove, just to pay up.

Trip, then flip.

[JSngry]

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/12/10/look-mr-steinbrenner/

My advice to all teams everywhere, recruit yourself some BDSDs of your own, and then pretend it never happened.

[Patrick]

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/12/10/look-mr-steinbrenner/

My advice to all teams everywhere, recruit yourself some BDSDs of your own, and then pretend it never happened.

Exactly!

[paul secor]

The debt must be paid for as long as it remains unpaid. Then, after that, no more. He can then dehoove himself of the obligation.

But not before.

I have to say that I've never felt that way. If a player has given what he has, that's all I expect. If he fails, that's part of life. No debt owed. Just my opinion.

[Brad]

What debt? You're implying he breached his contract with the Rangers. If he had, do you think the Rangers would have paid him? The Rangers fulfilled their covenants and obligations under the contract and Lee fulfilled his.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a moral debt. He pitched to the best of his ability, thereby fulfilling his obligations under the contract.

The contract terminated of its own accord and that is the end of that.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Brad