Vinyl madness of a different kind

[Big Beat Steve]

May I ask for some guidance on the following matter related to vinyl collections?

A friend of mine recently told me about a colleague of hers whose husband has died and who now would like to dispose of his "jazz collection".

Not a big one (some 200 LPs or so) and I have no idea yet about the actual contents nor the jazz styles covered or the period during which the records were accumulated. The only name my friend was able to quote was "Miles Davis" (no idea if Birth Of The Cool, KOB, Electric Miles or whatever, though).

Now the BIG snag is: It has also transpired that the owner wanted to save on storage space and has stored the records in some kind of crates or boxes. As a result, ALL THE COVERS HAVE VANISHED!!

Unbelievable, galling, especially with this kind of collection. We've all seen it with pop and MOR 45s from the 50s and early 60s stacked in record racks now on sale at jumble sales, but THIS???

My question therefore is:

Assuming that this gent bought these records when they were fairly current, are there ANY jazz LPs/labels/styles/artists from the, day, late 50s to the 80s, that would be worth more than, say, a buck or two at all, if they were clean and early pressings but, alas, minus their covers?

I have no intention of speculating with this kind of stuff at all but of course would like to avoid overpaying if I really took the plunge and went for a substantial number of these.

Offhand I'd say in this situation the entire stock isn't worth more than a token amount but I may be wrong. Of course any sort of reissue or very much later pressing would disqualify at once but what kind of records would you advise looking out for anyway?

If I can bring myself to taking a look at such a heartbreaking mess, that is ...

How can ANYBODY be so dumb, especially in RECENT decades of record buying?

[Stefan Wood]

It happens.

Only the usual suspects (Prestige, Blue Note, Riverside, certain Columbia "6 eyes", Fantasy, Contemporary) would still be worth something without their covers, but only if there are no scratches or marks. Otherwise a collection like this would be worth to someone who wants to hear the music.

[kh1958]

There was a recent ebay auction of a bunch of coverless Blue Note LPs from the Alfred Lion era (supposedly covers were destroyed by a flood but the LPs were said to be in excellent condition)--despite this story, the LPs sold for the most part at a pretty decent price.

If it's a desired enough LP, you can always find another auction with a decent cover/trashed LP.

[clifford_thornton]

I'd pass.

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for your inputs (more will be welcome, of course).

Instinctively I'd also tend to pass without much regrets, especially since it is likely to be a hard battle convincing the "non-initiated" why the lack of covers renders most items virtually worthless without coming across as being rude (particularly if you are talking to one's heirs).

But while I would not really bet on the presence of any deep-groove Blue Notes and the like there are a couple of late 50s/early 60s "Eurojazz" releases where I'd even welcome just the vinyl even without its covers so I'd grab any straw for these. Beyond that, though, it would be interesting to hear what else might be worthy of consideration without overpaying. Hence my question ...

Edited March 24, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[Unk]

When I was growing up, the local (substantial!) record store burned down. The covers were all water damaged. The LPs, for the most part, survived - though some with a bit of superficial mold. The post-fire beginning price was a dollar each; they started lowering the price after that. It seems like about half the batch went at a dollar.

[Victor Christensen]

I just wonder, why are the original covers so important. it's the music that counts. I had about 300 first pressings of BN, Prestige & Riverside that I just traded in for nothing to get the CD's of the same, but well I have never been aware what they could be worth moneywise. I gave away Albert Aylers first recording with a dedication (only 100 copies made) because I did not like like it. Later saw it sold in an auction for 4000$, but so what, record collectors are much the same as stamp collectors. The Music is what matters to me.

Vic

[clifford_thornton]

I didn't need to read that last bit...

[Big Beat Steve]

I just wonder, why are the original covers so important. it's the music that counts. I had about 300 first pressings of BN, Prestige & Riverside that I just traded in for nothing to get the CD's of the same, but well I have never been aware what they could be worth moneywise. I gave away Albert Aylers first recording with a dedication (only 100 copies made) because I did not like like it. Later saw it sold in an auction for 4000$, but so what, record collectors are much the same as stamp collectors. The Music is what matters to me.

Vic

With all due respect but this is silly.

Or else this post is a hoax, a put-on, trying to pull one's leg or whatever ...

The music is what counts - true, but the album cover art (in its ORIGINAL size!!) is not to be neglected either. On the better items it forms a unit with the contents of the vinyl. Not to mention the "rest" of the cover information. Especially since there is no REASONABLE NEED AT ALL to separate the record from the sleeve in this manner anyway.

OTOH, Mr Christensen, welcome to the world of cassettes. The music in its purest form and totally uncluttered by unwieldy album covers. Or much better still - downloads. No jewel cases or booklets to contend with either. Just streams of musical bits and bytes that will fit easily on any ipod. Time to dump your CDs.

Or to put it yet another way ... you surely must have been kidding???

[JohnS]

Anyone in the UK remember Jackie. Put all his record on tape, kept the jackets and traded in the lps at Rays! I have two or three.

[Dan Gould]

Victor is a true music lover, not an object fetishist. Value to him is located purely within the sounds that give him pleasure.

[shaft]

A lot of people traded in their LP collections for chep money at the time when CDs got popular - pre-internet et al. so I don't see why this should be a hoax from our friend in Denmark.

For me an LP cover is part of the experience of listening to a record. A nice laminated cover with information and nice pictures adds to the experience. The music is the most important of course but there is a reason that an original BN LP costs ten times as much as the CD-version. Same music different packaging. Best case on a sunny day the LP maybe can sound better but most often not It's not about he music anymore - it is about collecting and collectors want minty things that are complete.

If a coverless LP fetches a price it is probably just because the buyer already has an OK cover but a bad or damaged LP that needs replacing and you can enjoy or sell a better complete copy.

BTW you see what is going on now. People are selling out their CD collections to put hem on harddrives or go the download way or Spotify. A lot of CDs will sell cheap the coming years and the rare titles will become collectible I'm sure.

Sorry for the OT.

/Shaft

[Big Beat Steve]

Sorry Shaft, I really did not want to downplay Mr Christensen's enthusiasm for the music.

But putting down and negating ANY importance of the covers of the records (as part of the COMPLETE object) in such an outright and uncompromising manner really struck me as very, very odd.

Like you, I'd see things like this:

For me an LP cover is part of the experience of listening to a record. A nice laminated cover with information and nice pictures adds to the experience.

Of course the music is the most important part and therefore I've been known to buy reissues of desirable music with garish, atrocious covers if you wanted the music badly enough and nothing else was available or affordable (a common occurrence in the 70s and early 80s) but THROWING OUT the covers in the first place (like in the case that started this thread) is just utterly foolish.

Oh well, maybe I can bring myself to having a look at this "naked" collection ...

[JSngry]

Vic has been listening to & loving this music longer than I've been alive, so AFAIC he's more than earned the right to not care about covers, to put it mildly...

[Big Beat Steve]

Sure, no doubt, but wouldn't this lifelong experience make it even more obvious (and understandable!!) that others may have an ever so slightly different attitude about it? Especially since this "slightly different" attitude is not exactly one that is shared by an infinitesimally small minority only?

So again, this (statement) explains that (reaction) ...

Besides, if Mr Christensens's point had only been that there is little point in drooling about original first pressing covers, ears in wax, deep or not so deep grooves, small print addresses etc., I'd be in total agreement with him. But don't tell me, tell all those BN/Impulse etc. geeks out there. While I understand their collecting point and of course am glad to get my hands on an early pressing at a BARGAIN price here and there too, to me a decent facsmilie reissue usually gives just as much pleasure.

HOWEVER - the sheer act of THROWING AWAY those covers needlessly (which is what THIS thread is about) is just so incredibly, unfathomably silly that there hardly are any words to describe such folly.

Hence my original question about what would remain of such stripped records if one would want to avoid overpaying for these items.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[shaft]

Hi again

If we are talking about CDs and LPs the cover is a PART of the product.

Not only does the packaging look nice in many cases, but the cover also protects the product of course. Pretty obvious. The fact that the cover is sold with the LP makes it a part of the object sold and a LP without cover is not a complete PRODUCT. That is why the grading of LP's most often has a grading of the cover alone.

The music is just as good/bad regardless of the cover. I think we agree ;-)

BTW I have a relative that is quite old by now. He bought only classical music on LP. But he did not save the LPs. He traded them back after copying them on reel to reel. So in the end he had no LPs but only a massive amount of RTR-tapes. Hmmmm. And my father borrowed a lot of jazz LPs and put them on RTR. Too bad he did not buy the LPs. It would have been a nice investment

/Shaft

[JSngry]

I think it's rude to ridicule veteran listeners for whatever habits and preferences they have developed over the years regarding their personal collections.

[Big Beat Steve]

FWIW, I did not mean to really ridicule anyone but I take offense at being ridiculed or belittled - even if it is by someone made out by others to be claiming "seniority" (though I doubt Mr Christensen himself made his statements based on his "seniority" - of which, incidentally, I was largely unaware when I replied).

And please do remember what the original question and the initial replies were all about. Don't you think that denigrating the very concern about throwing out those covers as if any regrets about this were an oh so silly thing to do almost automatically calls for an answer if one really cares about the subject on hand?

In short, if respect for differences in personal preferences is being claimed then this clearly is no one-way street and respect should be due both ways.

Besides, I for one am not THAT much of a youngster in my own listening myself anymore (for better or worse!) Or do 36 years of active collecting and real interest in the music amount to nothing? If so, boy, do we have a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears youngsters around here ...

That said, I still agree with Shaft's latest statement above about what constitutes a "complete" product. Hence my regrets about the state of affairs in my initial post. Is that really that hard to sympathize with, even to seasoned listeners?

Edited April 6, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[shaft]

I like your answer Big Beat Steve;

I see no really disagreement here. Strangely enough I think we are adressing two (completely) different things:

1. Music listening and enjoyment. Hey you can just get a spotify account (streaming online) to enjoy the music - fine.

2. Collecting and all that goes with it.

Collectors are a different breed. However music collecting and music enjoyment can, and often go, hand in hand. But not necessarily so.

Music lovers don't have to be collectors and get enjoyment in OBI-strips, ear-marks, or if RVG Stamps tell you that Rudy himselt mastered the LP or CD.

So let's just enjoy the music and/or the best way we can

I've myself been aquiring jazz LP and then CD for about 30 years so I guess I'm the rookie here. I just wish for that I can keep on enjoying jazz for the rest of my life.

/Shaft

[Big Beat Steve]

Sure there are two different (and not necessarily, though often) related aspects:

- Enjoyment of the music per se

- Collecting the music in the way it was marketed (original releases or not)

Maybe Mr Christensen was just adressing the enjoyment of music a such but in the context of my original question and the subsequent answers it did come across as something like "pointless worrying about the packaging at all, it's only the music that counts".

Well, in THIS (collecting) context it is not, at least not in the way such a categorical statement would imply, hence my reaction.

We all know fanatical collectors (who might see those platters more as investment objects and not as items that actually get regular spins on the tunrtable) are overdoing things, but aren't we all sometimes?

I'd bet that almost ALL of us forumists here (who usually are collectors in a way too) value a nicely packaged release or reissue (maybe reproducing the orignial artwork) higher than one with shoddily and clumisly "updated" sleeves/artwork etc. But except if you are really a fanatical "first pressing" fetichist you will be able to get enjoyment out of the music even if the packaging is so-so. E.g. the "Jazz in Paris" CD series is nice, but wouldn't we all just love to be able to at least look at many of those items in their original 10in LP releases, if only for the artwork?

So I do consider myself a collector too yet I couldn't care less about OBI strips, for example.

But as for just "enjoying the music", how far can you cut down on the packaging goes with the music? The other day I attended a lindy hop record hop here in town, and the DJ spun a track by the Ina Ray Hutton big band, and obviously he (and the dancing crowd) enjoyed it too. Very nice, and as reissues are thin on the ground, I asked him what track it exactly was. His answer: "Don't know, just burnt me a CD-R one day but have no info on the contents at all." WTF???? Like a track but don't even care enough about it to find out the TITLE of that track? Just fodder for hoofing on the dancefloor? So this is what full anjoyment of the music amounts to?

So if we are at least halfway interested in the music, don't we almost automatically end up with wanting to find out about the artists too? Which leads to sleeve notes and then to recording dates etc. etc. Just to put things into context and be able to explore more music like that from a knowledgeable starting ground. Yet all this without going haywire about first pressings etc.

Which in turn should make it easy to understand why that foolishness of DUMPING the covers that I described in my opening post just left me so exasperated ...

[shaft]

Agreed I would feel the same about dumping covers. Apart from being nice to look at they give a lot of useful information that I like to read.

Strangely enough the opposite happened to me last summer.

I was at an Antique shop that had purchased the remaining things from a photographer. He had been on of Swedens top photographers for jazz and pop music covers. Worked for Metronome in the 60s and also was ABBAs first choice for a long period of time.

Anyway under a table there was a crate of Jazz LPs which looked interesting. Skimming through the lot unveiled a lot of interesting Swedish jazz. Bernt Rosengren, Harry Arnold, Rune Gustavsson etc. etc. The covers looked like new. However one big problem ------ there were no LPs in the covers! Why so? It came to me that he had got all those LP covers as print proofs to say to the printers that the print quality was ok. Not the complete product then - ok? They were asking $1.50 each. Had it only been with the LPs in them it would have been great find indeed (and they would probably have been sold long ago).

I ended up buying just one title by Harry Arnold that was more like a marketing leaflet in 12 inch size with a really great picture of Harry himself later used in the Mystery Band LP release.

So the opposite can happen also ;-)

/Shaft

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, Shaft, if there had been a cover of that BARBEN 1004 LP "Sax Apeal" by the Swedish Modern Jazz group feat Lars Gullin in that lot, I'd be very glad to snap up the cover only.

I do have the music on a 70s reissue LP but with an EXTREMELY nondescript cover (Telestar label, I think) so the original one would be a LOT nicer (even if we don't count the cheesecake factor). :D

And YET I am able to enjoy the music for what it is, original cover or not ...

[shaft]

Hi - we have a lover of swedish jazz here KUDOS ;-)

NOPE I'm sorry to say that that particular LP cover was not there - Beautiful cover though with the girl and the saxes

Here is alink that you might have heard of: Swedish jazz covers

Mostly Metronome from the 60's.

/Shaft

PS I haven't been back since last summer....

BTW The protographers name was Bengt H Malmqvist ;-)

/Shaft

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for that link, Shaft.

Very interesting and a nice addition to the corresponding part of the Birka website.

As you mention loose covers floating about, indeed that does happen. Even some record sellers seem to dump the LPs (considered worthless? trashed?) and use the cardboard covers as PADDING when they send out their goods!! So through the years I ended up with a handful of rather nice 50s U.S. covers without their contents, e.g. Billy Eckstine on MGM, Harmonicats on Mercury, Billy Vaughn and others. Nice wall decoration anytime but still a real pity for those who happen to like that music.