Gil Evans Orchestra's (not really) "Into The Hot" (1961)

[DobermanBoston]

Strange little record. Supposedly a sequel to Out of the Cool, but it's really Gil just fronting for Cecil Taylor and some guy named John Carisi, whose orchestra alternates tracks with the Cecil Taylor Unit.

The Cecil half of it is excellent; the only recording of his I know of that featured both Jimmy Lyons and Archie Shepp. The Carisi stuff isn't very good though.

[Larry Kart]

A "strange" record it may be but hardly little known. And Carisi is not just "some guy," whether or not you happen to like his stuff here. Do a little homework first.

[DobermanBoston]

A "strange" record it may be but hardly little known. And Carisi is not just "some guy," whether or not you happen to like his stuff here. Do a little homework first.

I never claimed it was little known. Carisi is pretty much whatever the music version is of a television character actor is. He played with some of the swing guys and on Birth of The Cool, right?

[HolgerFreimutSchrick]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

[J.A.W.]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

[Joe]

I hate to be the "guy without a good discographical reference work of his own," but... assuming this release was always conceived of a split showcase, do any extra tracks or takes exist for either session?

[DobermanBoston]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

Können Sie Deutschen nicht lesen?

I hate to be the "guy without a good discographical reference work of his own," but... assuming this release was always conceived of a split showcase, do any extra tracks or takes exist for either session?

I don't believe so. I am a huge Cecil Taylor fan and have never heard (or even heard of) any outtakes. Then again until last year I had always assumed that this record was just a lesser, cash-in follow up to Out of The Cool a la Oliver Nelson's More Blues and The Abstract Truth.

[David Ayers]

I hate to be the "guy without a good discographical reference work of his own," but... assuming this release was always conceived of a split showcase, do any extra tracks or takes exist for either session?

I think alternates were recorded but were never issued. The Taylor tracks which appeared on Impulse A-9 were later issued on the Taylor/Rudd compilation, Mixed.

Edited November 26, 2011 by David Ayers

[DobermanBoston]

I hate to be the "guy without a good discographical reference work of his own," but... assuming this release was always conceived of a split showcase, do any extra tracks or takes exist for either session?

I think alternates were recorded but were never issued. The Taylor tracks which appeared on Impulse A-9 were later issued on the Taylor/Rudd compilation, Mixed.

Yes, the Rudd portion is his fantastic Impulse! album Everywhere with Giuseppe Logan.

Edited November 26, 2011 by DobermanBoston

[J.A.W.]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

Können Sie Deutschen nicht lesen?

I do read and speak German (ich lese und spreche Deutsch), but not everyone here does and English is the forum's language; I think everyone should post in English, if only as a courtesy to others.

Edited November 26, 2011 by J.A.W.

[DobermanBoston]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

Können Sie Deutschen nicht lesen?

I do read and speak German (ich lese und spreche Deutsch), but not everyone here does and English is the forum's language; I think everyone should post in English, if only as a courtesy to others.

I was just being funny, or trying to be.

[Larry Kart]

Strange little record. Supposedly a sequel to Out of the Cool, but it's really Gil just fronting for Cecil Taylor and some guy named John Carisi, whose orchestra alternates tracks with the Cecil Taylor Unit.

The Cecil half of it is excellent; the only recording of his I know of that featured both Jimmy Lyons and Archie Shepp. The Carisi stuff isn't very good though.

Your post -- informing of us what's on a record that many of us know well -- seemed oddly naive, which is why I thought you didn't know it was a fairly well-known recording. As for your "Carisi is pretty much whatever the music version is of a television character actor is. He played with some of the swing guys and on Birth of The Cool, right?" is breathtaking in its apparently demeaning ... can I say, ignorance? Carisi, for one, didn't play on the Birth of the Cool recordings (the sole trumpeter there was Miles), but his composition "Israel" and his arrangement of it was there. Of the piece Andre Hodeir wrote: "[T]he most remarkable side probably is 'Israel,' which offers a rather astonishing renewal of the blues." See p. 131-2 of Hodeir's "Jazz: Its Evolution and Essence" for more info.

And what the heck does "Carisi is pretty much whatever the music version is of a television character actor is" mean?

[Niko]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

Können Sie Deutschen nicht lesen?

I do read and speak German (ich lese und spreche Deutsch), but not everyone here does and English is the forum's language; I think everyone should post in English, if only as a courtesy to others.

imho, if you really have something exciting to share than every language is fine - in this particular case, the poster was telling a story (evans using the rest of his contract with impulse to push two admired artists) which is widely available everywhere - in such a case imho if you don't speak english well then just post a link... otherwise i'm with larry, there are quite a few posts about carisi around here and he doesn't deserve to be put down (meaning: saying you don't like the music of his you've heard is one thing, but saying "he played on Birth of the Cool" in a way that suggests that you played on "Kind of Blue" and consider it superior.... ;-) )

[DobermanBoston]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I thought English was the forum's language, not German. Not everyone here speaks or reads German.

Können Sie Deutschen nicht lesen?

I do read and speak German (ich lese und spreche Deutsch), but not everyone here does and English is the forum's language; I think everyone should post in English, if only as a courtesy to others.

imho, if you really have something exciting to share than every language is fine - in this particular case, the poster was telling a story (evans using the rest of his contract with impulse to push two admired artists) which is widely available everywhere - in such a case imho if you don't speak english well then just post a link... otherwise i'm with larry, there are quite a few posts about carisi around here and he doesn't deserve to be put down (meaning: saying you don't like the music of his you've heard is one thing, but saying "he played on Birth of the Cool" in a way that suggests that you played on "Kind of Blue" and consider it superior.... ;-) )

HAHAHAHAHA!

Nah, I have nothing against Carisi, but a lot of people who played with Miles Davis could fairly be referred to as "some guy," even Bennie Maupin who is one of my favorites. I far prefer Bennie's reed work to Wayne Shorter's but Shorter, because of his notoriety, could never be called "some guy". It's not really a value judgement.

[Joe]

I hate to be the "guy without a good discographical reference work of his own," but... assuming this release was always conceived of a split showcase, do any extra tracks or takes exist for either session?

I think alternates were recorded but were never issued. The Taylor tracks which appeared on Impulse A-9 were later issued on the Taylor/Rudd compilation, Mixed.

Thanks Chuck. One of Cecil's best sessions, IMO, even if it does sound, after all these years, a bit "transitional" (I prefer to think of it as "sui generis").

[AllenLowe]

Ohnny Jay Arisi Kay uzWay a illiantBRAY omposerKAY.

[Michael Weiss]

Johnny Carisi was well respected by Dizzy. Read what he has to say about him playing at Minton's in To Be, Or Not To Bop.

[ejp626]

I think it is perfectly legit to consider him a very, very minor figure in jazz. I'll cop to not being consciously aware of him. Wasn't really aware we had to do our homework before coming on the site.

[Chuck Nessa]

I do think the beantown puppy was trying to be provocative and received the response he wanted.,

[Larry Kart]

I think it is perfectly legit to consider him a very, very minor figure in jazz. I'll cop to not being consciously aware of him. Wasn't really aware we had to do our homework before coming on the site.

If you make a statement or ask a question that can be contravened or answered or whatever with a minimal amount of investigation, then I think "do your homework" is a fair response.

Man, that "A Love Supreme" is a cool album, huh? Anyone else heard it? And what's with that Pee Wee Russell dude? Sure doesn't sound like a clarinet should.

[HolgerFreimutSchrick]

1961 zwang ihn der Vertrag mit Impulse! ein weiteres Album aufzunehmen, aber er stieg auf seine Weise aus dem Vertrag aus: Da er keine Material hatte, um eine neue LP aufzunehmen, bot er stattdessen als formeller Leiter von Into The Hot (Impulse!) unter seinem Namen Projekten der jüngeren Musiker Johnny Carisi und Cecil Taylor für je eine Plattenseite eine Plattform, versehen mit einem Cover mit Evans’ Foto ähnlich der von Out of the Cool. Gefragt nach dem Grund für dieses „Abfallprodukt“ meinte Evans, dies sei die einzige Möglichkeit gewesen, die Musik der von ihm bewunderten Künstler zu hören

I said : Evans with tried to leave the contract at the Impulse Label with editing "Into The Hot" as "The Gil Evans Orchestra" (read in Stephanie Stein Crease's biography)