AllenLowe Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) if you have any doubts about how strong an influence Chu Berry must have had on Charlie Parker (attested to, of course, by Bird's own comments) listen to the November 25, 1941 session with the great St Louis blues man Peetie Wheatstraw, along with Berry and Lil Armstrong; Berry's solos are clearly bebop in embryo. Edited December 10, 2011 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Allen, have not heard this yet but there is something wrong with the personnel you quote. The Wheatstraw session was recorded on November 25, 1941 but Chu Berry died on October 30, 1941 from a car crash injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 hmmmm - it's definitely him; will have to check the date - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 interesting - I'm convinced it's Chu, which definitely makes the date (which is reported elsewhere as well) incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) the four tracks with the sax are the first four matrix numbers on that date, the final 5 have no sax... which maybe insignificant unless the numbers were applied at a date after the recording to precede the Nov 25 set. In any case it's nice for once to consider those recordings in a context other than the prescience of Wheatstraw's own fatal accident shortly afterwards. The only comparable singer I know who Chu Berry recorded with was Ollie Sheppard - great records but I'm unqualified to compare players... (other than to say they sound similar to me, but with Wheatstraw's being maybe a little smoother) Edited December 10, 2011 by cih Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 I love Wheatstraw - Throw Me in the Alley may just be the most amazing early jazz/blues fusion I have ever heard. Wild stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 me too. Always love the sound of Ike Rodgers' trombone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Which would be the most recommended reissues where this material is accessible nowadays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Which would be the most recommended reissues where this material is accessible nowadays? The tracks are on Peetie Wheatstraw Vol. 7 on Document. I'm listening on Spotify right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 the Fremeaux 2 cd box is terrific, great sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 So what are the titles of those magical tracks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 So what are the titles of those magical tracks? Don't Put Yourself on the Spot Old Organ Blues Hearse Man Blues Bring Me Flowers While I'm Living Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 OK -- I've listened. First, there's no way that's Chu Berry. Berry's characteristic rolling-and-tumbling rhythms aren't present; tone is quite different too -- more plane-like, less rounded. Second, nice as the tenor playing is, I hear no startling anticipations of bop here. Finally, I think I know who the talented tenorman is -- Franz Jackson. Listen to Jackson on his 1939 Arcadia Ballroom recordings with Roy Eldridge. If that isn't the same guy, I'm Harry Potter's little dick. And if it isn't Jackson, there were a lot of tenormen playing in that bag then, including Franz's predecessor with Eldridge, Dave Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazztrain Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Jan Evensmo agrees that it's not Chu. Here's what he has to say about the date in his Chu Berry Jazz Solography in a section concerning recordings that he believes "have erroneously been announced as including Chu Berry": >>> Also this recording date is after Chu's death. Even if the date may be wrong, the tenor saxophonist's style proves it is definitely not Chu who is playing. >>> OK -- I've listened. First, there's no way that's Chu Berry. Berry's characteristic rolling-and-tumbling rhythms aren't present; tone is quite different too -- more plane-like, less rounded. Second, nice as the tenor playing is, I hear no startling anticipations of bop here. Finally, I think I know who the talented tenorman is -- Franz Jackson. Listen to Jackson on his 1939 Arcadia Ballroom recordings with Roy Eldridge. If that isn't the same guy, I'm Harry Potter's little dick. And if it isn't Jackson, there were a lot of tenormen playing in that bag then, including Franz's predecessor with Eldridge, Dave Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) listening back I tend to agree that it's not Chu - though if you've heard the small-band stuff with Wingy Manone, you'll see it's not that far off. As for the pre-bop stuff, there's a fair amount on Old Organ Blues, also, even more so, on the double time in the tenor on Hearse Man Blues .50 and afterward - - what made me think it was Chu at first was the way, on the Manone stuff in particular, in which he varies his tone - sometimes heavy vibrato, and then a bit of lightness. In this way he was moving away from Hawkins' dotted eighth and sixteenth feel. but this guy definitely has some pre-bop chops. Check out Hearse Man Blues. also, not having seen Harry Potter's dick, I can't really answer Larry. Edited December 11, 2011 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 listening back I tend to agree that it's not Chu - though if you've heard the small-band stuff with Wingy Manone, you'll see it's not that far off. As for the pre-bop stuff, there's a fair amount on Old Organ Blues, also, even more so, on the double time in the tenor on Hearse Man Blues .50 and afterward - - what made me think it was Chu at first was the way, on the Manone stuff in particular, in which he varies his tone - sometimes heavy vibrato, and then a bit of lightness. In this way he was moving away from Hawkins' dotted eighth and sixteenth feel. but this guy definitely has some pre-bop chops. Check out Hearse Man Blues. also, not having seen Harry Potter's dick, I can't really answer Larry. I haven't seen it either, but my guess is that it's little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Second, nice as the tenor playing is, I hear no startling anticipations of bop here. I'd agree in general, but there are moments in the obligattos where his runs are reminiscent of some of Bird's blues licks in a small way, at least. I haven't seen it either, but my guess is that it's little. Everything is relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 from my listening, there were few tenors really playing even eights in that era, other than Prez - I also think of an interesting tenor named Bobby Jones (not the later, Mingus Bobby Jones) who recorded with Red Nichols in the late '30s or early '40s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Discussion of session tenor from another board, 2005: http://blindman.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=5825 Since I don't have the actual Document disc I don't know how they list it. Edited December 11, 2011 by Pete C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Discussion of session tenor from another board, 2005: http://blindman.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=5825 Since I don't have the actual Document disc I don't know how they list it. Garon wrote the notes to the Documents, so I guess it'll be the same as in his biog - 'unknown'. FYI the man behind the username 'Sam Hopkins' on that discussion is blues researcher Alan Balfour, who left the forum a few years ago... Edited December 11, 2011 by cih Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Discussion of session tenor from another board, 2005: http://blindman.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=5825 Since I don't have the actual Document disc I don't know how they list it. Garon wrote the notes to the Documents, so I guess it'll be the same as in his biog - 'unknown'. FYI the man behind the username 'Sam Hopkins' on that discussion is blues researcher Alan Balfour, who left the forum a few years ago... Yep, he left in September 2005 with the line "OK I know when I'm beating my head against a brick wall" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.