Christiern Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 It is one thing to make sacrifices for art's sake—i.e. create something for little or nothing, because the end result is the true value. It is quite another thing to sacrifice the sustenance of someone else's career to further your own. What Quincy did—time and again—was to obscure the talents of "colleagues" by pushing them into the shadows and taking the spotlight at their expense. Yes, they were paid for their work, but the immediate financial rewards were insignificant compared to the ancillary ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was not agreeing with that point. The "sure" thing was "ironic". But your ironic point was the one I was making -- i.e. that the specific bad ethical behavior that Q engaged in and that we were talking about was irrelevant to his getting, in this case, the job as Gore's producer. Also -- BTW and IIRC -- getting that Gore gig was no picnic and/or big plum. It only became so after "It's My Party (And I'll Cry If I Want To)," and, again IIRC, Q and Gore were at loggerheads over whether to even record the tune, though I don't recall who was on which side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Quite possibly, more people heard a fully-credited Frank Rosolino on this one Quincy Jones record than heard him over the course of the rest of his life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvC2dXiCuuU Roland Kirk got a good and well-deserved pimping in the liner notes to the In the Heat Of The Night soundtrack. Rahsaan probably used that to his business advantage. Freddie Hubbard's most-recognized solo? Quite possibly this one, also fully credited: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVkMheBXY28 I don't think Freddie bitched about it. And so forth. Business be a bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was not agreeing with that point. The "sure" thing was "ironic". But your ironic point was the one I was making -- i.e. that the specific bad ethical behavior that Q engaged in and that we were talking about was irrelevant to his getting, in this case, the job as Gore's producer. Also -- BTW and IIRC -- getting that Gore gig was no picnic and/or big plum. It only became so after "It's My Party (And I'll Cry If I Want To)," and, again IIRC, Q and Gore were at loggerheads over whether to even record the tune, though I don't recall who was on which side. IIRC, "It's My Party" was at or near the start of the gate for the Gore/Jones affiliation. And no, I don't think he gets the Gore gig without displaying bad behavior. It's an axiom that to get ahead, you mimic the behavior of those whose status you want, not those of where you already are. How many "jazz guys" in the early 60s would have been cosidered for a teenage pop artist? From "jazz guy" to "pop producer", especially in those days, was a HUGE leap. We're not talking a Ray Charles album, we're talking Leslie Fucking Gore! And one more time - somebody tell me why Record Industry Giant Quincy Jones is any worse than any other Record Industry Giant? Hell, even that's not correct...he became an Entertainment Industry Giant. Hardly an field of Pure Angels, that one... These things exist with or without Quincy Jones, so...why not Quincy Jones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 who got arranging credit for Benard Ighner's, "Everything Must Change"?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 who got arranging credit for Benard Ighner's, "Everything Must Change"?!? Per: http://www.discogs.com/Quincy-Jones-Body-Heat/release/766244 Everything Must ChangeVocals, Soloist – Benard Ighner* Arranged By – Dave Blumberg*, Quincy Jones, Tommy Bahler* Per the liner notes, I don't see this asterisk, but I do see the names listed as co-arrangers.: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 guess what i bought today u guys: a Quincy Jones lp! lolz. its a soundtrack to a robert redford movie, 1972. gerry mulligan, clark terry, carl kaye, mike melovin, and like every name on the record was either a great jazz musican or a great la studio musican, sometimes both, and it was a promo copy, so i bought it. it was only a dollar, looks like its an action film, so it should be exciting music.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dave Blumberg, btw, worked at Motown for a good while, so I doubt that he felt slighted by having his name openly listed in the credits, if you know what I mean... guess what i bought today u guys: a Quincy Jones lp! lolz. its a soundtrack to a robert redford movie, 1972. gerry mulligan, clark terry, carl kaye, mike melovin, and like every name on the record was either a great jazz musican or a great la studio musican, sometimes both, and it was a promo copy, so i bought it. it was only a dollar, looks like its an action film, so it should be exciting music.... There's names listed on the record? :o Geez, I hope nobody was able to use that for their career gain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Dave Blumberg, btw, worked at Motown for a good while, so I doubt that he felt slighted by having his name openly listed in the credits, if you know what I mean... guess what i bought today u guys: a Quincy Jones lp! lolz. its a soundtrack to a robert redford movie, 1972. gerry mulligan, clark terry, carl kaye, mike melovin, and like every name on the record was either a great jazz musican or a great la studio musican, sometimes both, and it was a promo copy, so i bought it. it was only a dollar, looks like its an action film, so it should be exciting music.... There's names listed on the record? :o Geez, I hope nobody was able to use that for their career gain... I WANNA BE ON A QUINCY JONES DATE. HEAR ME, OH LORD----YOU GOOD WOMAN. I'LL WASH PEGGY LIPTONS'S FEET IF INSTRUCTED AND I CAN PAD THE RESUME LATER, JUST AS THE L WOMAN PADS....WELL, LET'S ,UM, NOT GO THERE........... Guys, seriously: if every musician playing uncredited on record dates between 1950 and now (well there IS no recording industry now) complained about not having their props tickets punched there'd be................................................................................................................................................................... a shitload of complaints. Then a shitload of firings and replacings with ass-lickers. So let's get real. Getting paid well and keeping one's mouth shut are wonderful ways to keep something green that pays for things like food and cars and kids education coming in. Are we clear on this? Or should I take a Berlitz course in Lithuanian conjunction and try afresh? Edited January 31, 2012 by fasstrack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Sorry that you don't (refuse to?) get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) i dont know if i get it, but it seems like hes stolen and cheated, and i think hes a celebrity presense more than important musical contributor. take the original lp in this post, go west man. his biggest contrib. is the the cover, being on the cover. so he conducted the band and kept them on tempo, big deal, who needs a conductor anyway when mel lewis or whoever it was on drums to be on tempo, lol. .....thats not to say thriller wasnt an incredible record, i just have to add that, sry Edited February 1, 2012 by chewy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Dave Blumberg, btw, worked at Motown for a good while, so I doubt that he felt slighted by having his name openly listed in the credits, if you know what I mean... guess what i bought today u guys: a Quincy Jones lp! lolz. its a soundtrack to a robert redford movie, 1972. gerry mulligan, clark terry, carl kaye, mike melovin, and like every name on the record was either a great jazz musican or a great la studio musican, sometimes both, and it was a promo copy, so i bought it. it was only a dollar, looks like its an action film, so it should be exciting music.... There's names listed on the record? :o Geez, I hope nobody was able to use that for their career gain... I WANNA BE ON A QUINCY JONES DATE. HEAR ME, OH LORD----YOU GOOD WOMAN. I'LL WASH PEGGY LIPTONS'S FEET IF INSTRUCTED AND I CAN PAD THE RESUME LATER, JUST AS THE L WOMAN PADS....WELL, LET'S ,UM, NOT GO THERE........... Guys, seriously: if every musician playing uncredited on record dates between 1950 and now (well there IS no recording industry now) complained about not having their props tickets punched there'd be................................................................................................................................................................... a shitload of complaints. Then a shitload of firings and replacings with ass-lickers. So let's get real. Getting paid well and keeping one's mouth shut are wonderful ways to keep something green that pays for things like food and cars and kids education coming in. Are we clear on this? Or should I take a Berlitz course in Lithuanian conjunction and try afresh? PEGGY LIPTON?!? LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) i dont know if i get it, but it seems like hes stolen and cheated, and i think hes a celebrity presense more than important musical contributor. take the original lp in this post, go west man. his biggest contrib. is the the cover, being on the cover. so he conducted the band and kept them on tempo, big deal, who needs a conductor anyway when mel lewis or whoever it was on drums to be on tempo, lol. Strange thing ... getting back to the original post and record: I got that "Go West Man" LP quite some years ago (an ABC original with white promo label too, BTW - how many of those promos did they distribute after all? ). And one reason I went for that one was that I had found his 50s arranging works (and the resulting music) appealing and somewhere this one was touted as clearly being one of his late 50s big band masterworks (along with "This I How I Feel About Jazz"). But now, listening to it again, I still find it very nice, but that "Quincy Jones touch"? Where?? Somehow I feel about it just like Chewy now. And what is more, trying to find how I got hooked on that record, I cannot even find ONE SINGLE trace in the jazz books I have (and that might possibly talk about it) where it is even MENTIONED! So I guess for that 50s Quincy Jones arranger's touch I'll stick with what got me started in the first place: Those late 50s HARRY ARNOLD big band sessions where he contributed quite a few compositions and charts. The bottom line? The man we're talking about seems to have been a comparatively pedestrian trumpet player, could do great composing and arranging but did not do as much of that as it is claimed he did (as he had arrangements attributed to him that weren't his), was a jack of all trades and man in the right place in the business, especially in the producer's field, who could and did pull the right things and could get the right things started. Late 50s to today's Paul Whiteman, Dave Kapp and Steve Sholes all rolled into one? Is that about it? Edited February 1, 2012 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Pretty much, but you left out one thing: he was a black man with a look that was "acceptable" to whites. Ridiculous, but that's the way things often were, especially when the talent was short of extraordinary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 The man we're talking about seems to have been a comparatively pedestrian trumpet player, He'd be the first to admit that. I think he said that being in Hamp's band with Clifford Brown and Art Farmer made him decide he'd better apply his talent and energies elsewhere... Regardless of any "moral failings," his own big band recordings of the late '50s and early '60s and his charts for Basie are stellar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I'd be curious to know Phil Woods' take on all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Strange thing ... getting back to the original post and record: I got that "Go West Man" LP quite some years ago (an ABC original with white promo label too, BTW - how many of those promos did they distribute after all? ). And one reason I went for that one was that I had found his 50s arranging works (and the resulting music) appealing and somewhere this one was touted as clearly being one of his late 50s big band masterworks (along with "This I How I Feel About Jazz")... Touted as such where? It's not a big band album but three dates with a rhythm section and IIRC 1) four altos 2) three tenors and a bari, and 3) four trumpets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Yes I was definitely wrong about using the term "big band". I should have written "one of his own BAND albums", i.e. one of the albums credited to him and showing off his own skills. And again - I distinctly remember this particular album being mentioned more than once as one (in addition to "This Is How I Feel about Jazz" and also "Birth of a Band") that really showed off what he could do at that time - even more so than the arranging he did for others. When I read the opening post, my first thought was "You got that album too, so what did get YOU started on that one"? And I checked - and found ... nothing. Not in the printed All Music Guide on Jazz, not in any of the early Down Beat Record Review yearbooks, nowhere in the West Coast Jazz books by Gordon or Gioia, nothing ... It has me stumped, right now anyway ... because I really remember clearly reading favorable comments on it. Edited February 1, 2012 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yes I was definitely wrong about using the term "big band". I should have written "one of his own BAND albums", i.e. one of the albums credited to him and showing off his own skills. And again - I distinctly remember this particular album being mentioned more than once as one (in addition to "This Is How I Feel about Jazz" and also "Birth of a Band") that really showed off what he could do at that time - even more so than the arranging he did for others. When I read the opening post, my first thought was "You got that album too, so what did get YOU started on that one"? And I checked - and found ... nothing. Not in the printed All Music Guide on Jazz, not in any of the early Down Beat Record Review yearbooks, nowhere in the West Coast Jazz books by Gordon or Gioia, nothing ... It has me stumped, right now anyway ... because I really remember clearly reading favorable comments on it. All I recall was that I bought it when it came out and have always enjoyed it for what it is -- the two saxophone dates in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I should have written "one of his own BAND albums", i.e. one of the albums credited to him and showing off his own skills. It appears that arrangements were credited on this album, so this is a good place to point out that anytime you see a credit to "The ABC XYZ Orchestra", be it in a lead or a supporting role, you should never assume that ABC XYZ did anything more than get a piece of money for lending their name. A "leader" doesn't have to conduct the band, rehearse it, write for it, contract the players, nothing. Of course, most do, and most at least supervise at least some of those tasks, but...assume nothing. Again - it's a corporate thing. "Branding" if you will. Music's just a facilitator, nothing more. Not at that level and not in that mindset. Edited February 1, 2012 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I know. I wasn't referring to what's written ON the album but what had been written ABOUT the album. (Or what I must have been reading about that particular album someplace somewhere) The way I listen to albums such as this now, of course I listen to the music as such and for itself - Quincy or not. Edited February 1, 2012 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I'd be curious to know Phil Woods' take on all this. If you read him this and asked for comments you guys would be crying for a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I know. I wasn't referring to what's written ON the album but what had been written ABOUT the album. (Or what I must have been reading about that particular album someplace somewhere) See, the "branding" worked. If it hadn't, we'd not have had The Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air. Would you want to live in a world without Will Smith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 ...anytime you see a credit to "The ABC XYZ Orchestra", be it in a lead or a supporting role, you should never assume that ABC XYZ did anything more than get a piece of money for lending their name... And those names often show up for contractual reasons, such as the ABC Paramount Kenyon Hopkins albums that were released under The Creed Taylor Orchestra, because Kenyon Hopkins was contracted to Capitol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I recall one release that no arranger should wish to be given credit for. "Back on the Block" was a Quincy Jones abomination that had his name prominently displayed, A terrible mish-mash, it included a who's-who of real talent (Ella, Miles, Sarah, Dizzy, and Ray Charles, among them). I know of no other recording that so wasted fine talent as this crap did. I remember listening several times to find Sarah and others—there was no sign of them. This was a production fatally wounded by Quincy's immense ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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