Lesley Gore, RIP

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

RIP

[AllenLowe]

1) Bob Crewe, it turns out, was a neighbor of mine (well, maybe 10 miles away; lived in a better neighborhood)

2) I think Gore was a good singer, wonderful quality to her voice, but it was untrained; always felt, at least live, that she wasn't gonna quite make all the notes, though she did.

3) interesting about un-promoted gay-ness; Crewe was one of the early ones to come out; makes me think of Dusty Springfield, too. Love songs, the life blood, are determinedly hetero.

[JSngry]

Love songs, the life blood, are determinedly hetero.

Hmmmm....not sure about that, unless love itself is determinedly hetero? In which case, "true" love is rooted in the need to reproduce, not the need to "become whole" in a spiritual/mental sense instead of a reproductive merging of genetic materials?

Still figuring this out as I go along, definitely was not born into a world that entertained the notion of a gay "true" love, everything was based in making them babies, or at least in engaging in the act that would theoretically allow for that. And now, not so much. Still that, but also other possibilities?

I mean, I hear what you're saying, what I would hesitate on is this an Ultimate Truth or is it perhaps a Temporal Assumption that is going to have to be amended to make room for other possibilities as we evolve?

[page]

Love songs, the life blood, are determinedly hetero.

Hmmmm....not sure about that, unless love itself is determinedly hetero? In which case, "true" love is rooted in the need to reproduce, not the need to "become whole" in a spiritual/mental sense instead of a reproductive merging of genetic materials?

Still figuring this out as I go along, definitely was not born into a world that entertained the notion of a gay "true" love, everything was based in making them babies, or at least in engaging in the act that would theoretically allow for that. And now, not so much. Still that, but also other possibilities?

I mean, I hear what you're saying, what I would hesitate on is this an Ultimate Truth or is it perhaps a Temporal Assumption that is going to have to be amended to make room for other possibilities as we evolve?

I guess I don't agree with that statement, Allen. Or maybe I don't really understand what you mean to say with "the life blood"; and even in the case of reproductive merging as JSngry mentions, that isn't really true anymore these days, is it? There are other possibilities for gay couples, at least in my country there are.

Edited February 18, 2015 by page

[paul secor]

Love songs, the life blood, are determinedly hetero.

Hmmmm....not sure about that, unless love itself is determinedly hetero? In which case, "true" love is rooted in the need to reproduce, not the need to "become whole" in a spiritual/mental sense instead of a reproductive merging of genetic materials?

Still figuring this out as I go along, definitely was not born into a world that entertained the notion of a gay "true" love, everything was based in making them babies, or at least in engaging in the act that would theoretically allow for that. And now, not so much. Still that, but also other possibilities?

I mean, I hear what you're saying, what I would hesitate on is this an Ultimate Truth or is it perhaps a Temporal Assumption that is going to have to be amended to make room for other possibilities as we evolve?

I guess I don't agree with that statement, Allen. Or maybe I don't really understand what you mean to say with "the life blood"; and even in the case of reproductive merging as JSngry mentions, that isn't really true anymore these days, is it? There are other possibilities for gay couples, at least in my country there are.

Think about the love songs written by Lorenz Hart, just to name one non-hetero lyricist.

Edited February 18, 2015 by paul secor

[Brad]

The Times had a nice article about her, how she was a feminist and how her songs or some of her songs reflected that point of view.

[AllenLowe]

missing my point, boys; in the Song business, historically, love songs, its bread and butter, have been heterosexually directed and marketed.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AllenLowe

[page]

Ah ok, you mean it like that. I now understand. Yes, that is probably since it wasn't accepted. Although I do think Cole Porter did make an effort there with his songs. What I meant is, that times have changed and nowadays it is accepted to write a love song whatever preference you have sexually. That guy winning a grammy last week wrote that song for his ex-boyfriend. I'm happy times have changed and people can express their feelings that way publicly although I know there is still work to be done to get everything equal

Edited February 18, 2015 by page

[AllenLowe]

I agree; just thinking about the time in which Gore - and Crewe, and Springfield - came up in; back in those days, '50s and '60s, the assumption was that everybody was paired off as boy/girl; and so even gay women like Gore and Springfield were marketed in this way, It must have been difficult. It's a little like Rock Hudson dating starlets.

[page]

Yes indeed. That must have been so.

[JSngry]

Think about the love songs written by Lorenz Hart, just to name one non-hetero lyricist.

Yeah, Porter too. although to Allen's point about how things were marketed, then you get into the area of "coding" and stuff, and, really, I wouldn't have a clue how much of that was real at the time (intentionally or otherwise) or has come to be picked up on retroactively, I just don't know. I do think there's a lot of sub-texts to a lot of pop songs that we don't know about until we find out about it, but again, how would you know if you weren't attuned to it in the first place? And if you were, would you know/think you were being reached out to by the songwriter or performer or just "adopt" it? Again, I don't know.

And in Gore's case, you wonder, was she one of those people who "always" knew they were gay, or was it a process of discovery? So many different ways that plays out, especially in the climate of outright hostile & retributory suppression/repression present until fairly recently (and we are still very much in a period of transition as far as that goes). None of my business, personally, but if there's going to be a posthumous "narrative" here, that could be a part of it, no?

One more reason why the "pop" in "pop music" continues to be of interest long after the "music" part very often ceases to be, at least for me.

Check this out for "code", real or imagined, intentional or not, imposed or just naturally projected...or maybe none of that at all, maybe just the synergy of cheesy film making and a cheesy song. I really don't know.

On a (significantly) lighter note, found this in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesley_Gore

Her record producer from 1963 to 1965 was Quincy Jones. Jones' dentist was Marvin Hamlisch's uncle, and Hamlisch asked his uncle to convey several songs to Jones.^[7] "Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows" was released on the LP Lesley Gore Sings of Mixed-Up Hearts but did not surface as a single until June 1965.

So not only can we blame her for Quincy Jones, we can blame her (or Quincy's dentist) for Marvin Hamlisch as well!

Claus Ogerman!

[Teasing the Korean]

Lots of rock and teen pop songs from the 1950s and 1960s had poorly written lyrics that frequently mixed up object and subject pronouns. As a result, many of the boy-girl scenarios included an inadvertent gay or a bisexual element. Interesting, then, that these lyrics are simultaneously juvenile while being decades ahead of their time, albeit accidentally so.

[Brad]

Unintentional or not, I think she was proud of You Don't Own Me and that it had been recorded by others.

Some people here may not like Quincy Jones but she certainly did.

[duaneiac]

Lots of rock and teen pop songs from the 1950s and 1960s had poorly written lyrics that frequently mixed up object and subject pronouns. As a result, many of the boy-girl scenarios included an inadvertent gay or a bisexual element. Interesting, then, that these lyrics are simultaneously juvenile while being decades ahead of their time, albeit accidentally so.

I think lots of songs from the Golden Age of the American Songbook also had poorly written or ambiguous lyrics. It's just that most of those have been forgotten over time and only the better songs remain performed today.

There's an interesting CD put out by Sony many years ago now and likely OOP. I guess back in the 1920's songwriters, or their publishing houses, had stricter control over their works and they would not permit a single alteration to their lyrics. So if a song was sung from a feminine point of view, a male vocalist who chose to sing/record that song could not change the pronouns to make it more "appropriate". I have this CD somewhere, but my collection is not well organized so I can't find it right now.

I agree; just thinking about the time in which Gore - and Crewe, and Springfield - came up in; back in those days, '50s and '60s, the assumption was that everybody was paired off as boy/girl; and so even gay women like Gore and Springfield were marketed in this way, It must have been difficult. It's a little like Rock Hudson dating starlets.

Or like Peter Allen marrying Liza Minelli. One of Peter Allen's finer songs was "I Honestly Love You". There is no clear definition in the song of who "you" is, male or female. The song was recorded by Olivia Newton-John in a rather saccharine arrangement and became a huge hit, with of course, the assumption being that the song dealt with a male and female situation.

But knowing of Peter Allen's life, when listening to his own recording of the song, it becomes a much more poignant experience. His version has kind of a slow, boozy, after hours feel to it, and it comes across as a very intimate, heartfelt moment:

Maybe I hang around here

A little more than I should

We both know I got somewhere else to go

But I got something to tell you

That I never thought I would

But I believe you really ought to know

I love you

I honestly love you

Now there is a huge difference between a woman saying those words to a man and a gay man saying those words to a straight man. A whole new world has been entered in that situation. While in the male/female relationship, there is at least the chance that the feeling will be reciprocal. In the gay/straight scenario, that chance does not even exist, yet that does not make the love and longing felt any less sincere or painful.

You don't have to answer

I see it in your eyes

Maybe it was better left unsaid

In the male/female reading, there's not much at stake here beyond, "I'm sorry, let's just be friends, shall we". That look in the eyes just probably says that romantic feeling is not mutually shared. In the gay/straight reading, there is a whole lot at stake. That look in the eyes could be one of embarrassment, shock, disgust, anger. The friendship itself may be ended, hurtful words may be said, violence may even erupt. There's just a whole lot of dramatic context taken away from the song in the version recorded by Ms. Newton-John.

[Teasing the Korean]

I think lots of songs from the Golden Age of the American Songbook also had poorly written or ambiguous lyrics. It's just that most of those have been forgotten over time and only the better songs remain performed today.

That may be true, but unfortunately, that is not the case with songs of the rock era. Otherwise, all of the grammatically incorrect teen pop from that era that is still played would be forgotten. The early Beatles are one obvious example.

[Brad]

I think some are over analyzing some of these songs, trying to see in them what they would like.

In the case of It's My Party, a girl by the name of Judy Gottlieb (now Solash and living in NC), who was 16 and living in Brooklyn in 1963 , was having a Sweet 16 party. Her parents informed that her grandparents had to be invited. Judy Gottlieb burst into tears, and her father said, "Don't cry. " She, of course, answered: "It's my party, and I'll cry if I want to."

Her father, Seymour, was a part time song writer and wrote the lyrics. He gave the lyrics to to his songwriting partner, Herbie Wiener, who in turn passed them onto someone else. He then heard Gore singing the song on the radio and contacted Weiner and they agreed to share Wiener's royalties from the song.

From an article I read, the family is still receiving royalty checks.

As to when she realized she was gay, I saw an article saying that she said it wasn't until her 20s.