Curtis Fuller, minor mystery

[Larry Kart]

The other day I picked up a copy of "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" (probably New Jazz initially, perhaps Prestige), with Sonny Red Kyner, Paul Chambers, and Louis Hayes. Fuller's second album, produced by Teddy Charles, it's a better than average blowing date, distinguished by the leader's relaxed rhythmic flexibility and (on several tracks) his lovely veiled tone -- one suspects that he draped a beret over the bell of his horn there. Only drawback is the oddly harsh recording -- Garland and Kyner (whose tone could take the paint off walls in any case) sound especially brittle. I say "oddly" because this was an RVG recording, and the above traits are not his.

In any case, I then bought Fuller's first Prestige album "New Trombone," produced by Ozzie Cadena,with the same personnel except for Hank Jones and Doug Watkins, and discovered that the sound there was just what one has come to expect from a Hackensack RVG date, though so far I think that "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" is superior musically, albeit Watkins plays his ass off on "New Trombone" and links up nicely with Hayes.

The minor mystery is the considerable difference in sound between the the two dates (quite brittle on "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" versus RVG's typical compact richness on "New Trombone"), especially mysterious when I saw that "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" was recorded by RVG just three days after "New Trombone" -- May 14, 1957 versus May 11, 1957. Perhaps that sonic difference was because two different people at Fantasy Studios did the re-mastering (Phil De Lancie on "New Trombone," Kirk Felton on "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" -- though it's hard to imagine anyone consciously or carelessly turning a typical RVG recording into something this harsh); perhaps it was that "New Trombone" is mono and "Curtis Fuller with Red Garland" might have been an early stereo date (can't be sure if it is) that required a different setup that didn't come off soundwise.

Any thoughts/info on this?

[AllenLowe]

the only thing I can think of, and I hope others with more expertise join in here, is that I have heard there are problems with some of the later RVG remasters. Apparently he's done things over for some sessions. I do not know if this is one of them.

Edited April 19, 2015 by AllenLowe

[mjzee]

Are you sure that CFWRG was recorded at RVG's? There was a thread on the old BNBB about how Fantasy was stating dates were recorded at RVG even when they weren't - it was just a typesetting trope they got into. I remember a Sonny Criss CD that sounded very harsh; it said it was recorded by RVG but was actually recorded by Richard Alderson. (There was a poster who was working on something called "The RVG Project" who confirmed this, and confirmed that Fantasy was just automatically stating RVG on every release; I wonder whatever happened to him or that project?)

[Larry Kart]

mjzee -- I don't think Alderson's studio existed back in May '57. Sure don't recall any Prestige dates from him of that vintage.

Allen -- This remaster was in Fantasy's hands; don't think RVG was asked to remaster anything but Blue Note material.

[jazzbo]

There was a Rudy Van Gelder series of remasters of Prestige material by Concord. This title however I do not believe was among them, and they were well-marked as RVG Editions.

[colinmce]

There was a Rudy Van Gelder series of remasters of Prestige material by Concord. This title however I do not believe was among them, and they were well-marked as RVG Editions.

No, it wasn't part of that series.

[mjzee]

mjzee -- I don't think Alderson's studio existed back in May '57. Sure don't recall any Prestige dates from him of that vintage.

I didn't state (or mean) that the Fuller date might have been recorded by Alderson. What I'm asking is, are you certain it was recorded by RVG?

Well, I'll correct myself: it seems the LP back cover credits RVG:

Edited April 19, 2015 by mjzee

[jazzbo]

This date was recorded in '57 and released later in '62 on New Jazz. . . seems it was a mono record. Is your copy mono Larry? If not, it might be fake stereo, which may be a reason it sounds uncharacteristic for a Van Gelder recording?

[Larry Kart]

This date was recorded in '57 and released later in '62 on New Jazz. . . seems it was a mono record. Is your copy mono Larry? If not, it might be fake stereo, which may be a reason it sounds uncharacteristic for a Van Gelder recording?

Can't tell for sure if it's mono -- not much "spread" -- but if it's fake stereo that probably would account for the brittle sound. Thanks.

[Chuck Nessa]

I will try mine in the morning.

[Larry Kart]

Moved on to Fuller's first Blue Note date, "The Opener," from June 1957, with Mobley, Timmons, Chambers, and Art Taylor. A blowing date too but a fair bit different in feel from "New Trombone" and "With Red Garland," probably rehearsed some the day before (as was typical of Alfred Lion) and routined/varied in solo order just the right amount. For instance, it's kind of annoying on "New Trombone" how many tracks begin with Hank Jones solos, and Jones also doesn't fit that well stylistically with Fuller and Kyner in the first place; nor on "With Red Garland" are Garland's solos placed to best advantage. On "The Opener" things just feel right, and Mobley (perhaps a bit hung up at moments) is basically a fine foil for Fuller. OTOH, as strong as Fuller sounds here, those tracks on "With Red Garland" where Fuller's tone is veiled (beret over the bell of his horn perhaps) and his approach is ruminative ("Stormy Weather" and the initial track of the album) are not to be missed.

[Larry Kart]

Taking one step further, what a gem "Curtis Fuller Vol. 3" is, with Art Farmer, Sonny Clark, George Tucker, and Louis Hayes -- from Dec. '57. As on "The Opener," the same Blue Note care in preparation/rehearsal without messing with in-the-moment freshness. Farmer is in excellent form, his almost plotted-out motivic precisions a nice contrast to Fuller's looser-limbed lines.

[Peter Friedman]

Been listening to the two Curtis Fuller - Prestige sessions on which Larry has been commenting. I should say in front that my CD copy

of New Trombone is a Japanese issue from 1992. Though no specific name is given, it looks like it was remastered in Japan.

My thoughts on these two sessions are a bit different than what Larry wrote. Though I do hear a slight difference in sound between the two CDs, but have no negative reaction to the Curtis Fuller with Red Garland date. The sound on that session seems to be a slight bit brighter, but I would not call it brittle. I am happy with the sound on both CDs.

I also differ with Larry in that I find New Trombone the more interesting musically. Fuller plays very fluently and his solos are generally a bit more interesting , to me, on this session. In my view Hank Jones is a far more interesting pianist than Red Garland and fits well with Fuller, Kyner and the rhythm section. Can't figure out why Larry did not consider him a good fit? The sense of "swing" on the New Trombone CD is a bit greater (IMO). Larry commented favorably on the playing of Doug Watkins and I am in complete agreement.

I do like both recordings.

[Larry Kart]

Peter -- I come and go on Hank Jones but feel in general that his more or less updated Teddy Wilson approach doesn't fit that well in Hard Bop settings: I prefer him on his own or on dates like Coleman Hawkins' "The High and Mighty Hawk" (Felsted). I know the term Hard Bop can be annoying if used in a limiting manner, but IMO there is no planet in the solar system on which Sonny Red and Jones can co-exist.

I agree, too, that there is some rhythmic lumpiness on the Fuller-Garland date, though Red's comping at its best is nicely aggressive, and I do really like those two tracks where Fuller's tone is veiled and he's so relaxed rhythmically.

[Peter Friedman]

I had a good laugh with your comment on Hank Jones and Sonny Red. Of course as you may expect, I do not share that view.

Sonny Red has also recorded with Tommy Flanagan who plays very much in the same style as Hank Jones.

In fact Flanagan has made , IMO, many many excellent recordings with hard bop players.

Of course as so often is the case, personal taste is a crucial factor in how we come to apppreciate certain musicians.

For me, both Hank Jones and Tommy Flanagan have been among my very favorite jazz pianists for many many decades.

They share my top favorites list with quite a few others such as Bud Powell, Barry Harris, Cedar Walton, Sonny Clark, Carl Perkins,

Duke Jordan, Horace Silver, and perhaps a half dozen others.

[Larry Kart]

I should add that one of my favorite solos is Jones' on "Autumn Leaves" from "Something Else." But perhaps RVG should get an assist there.

[JSngry]

Listen to Hank Jones' comp on Dexter's Ca' Purange side. Not at all a great Dexter record, but the chords that Hank plays are full of surprises if you're thinking of him as an updated Teddy Wilson.

[Joe]

Just to complicate things... IIRC, the Fantasy catalog used to list a bonus track appended to Fuller's NEW TROMBONE. But said track -- "Alicia" -- never actually appeared on any OJC CD pressing of that date that I could find.

Compare:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Trombone-CURTIS-FULLER/dp/B000000Y4Q

&

http://www.amazon.com/New-Trombone-Curtis-Fuller/dp/B000UBTLR2/

???

[Chuck Nessa]

It is included on my OJC cd.

[Larry Kart]

It is included on my OJC cd.

Mine, too.

[Larry Kart]

Listen to Hank Jones' comp on Dexter's Ca' Purange side. Not at all a great Dexter record, but the chords that Hank plays are full of surprises if you're thinking of him as an updated Teddy Wilson.

I wasn't thinking of Hank's harmonic sense when I made that remark/semi-wisecrack but of his frequent reliance on what might called "crystalline" tone and his similar taste for "shapely" phrasing and corresponding avoidance of boppish rhythmic angularity. BTW, I admire Teddy Wilson a lot.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I hear ya' on all counts. But Hank's harmonies on that Dexter date are really surprising sometimes...I recall thinking, oh, THAT'S where Thad picked up all that dense clustery stuff, from his older brother. Probably not true, but still.

[AllenLowe]

one important thing to note about Hank Jones - and also Tommy Flanagan - is that, sonically, both had sounds that regularly flattened themselves out after the '50s; meaning that Jones in particular had more of a Nat Cole-like bounce on a lot of his 50s and early '60s work, and I also hear that little sparkle/bounce in some of Tommy's '50s work.

[Joe]

It is included on my OJC cd.

Mine, too.

Of course you guys got the bonus track version... I just tracked down a copy that does as well from an online seller

Looks like this was corrected at some point, but it is odd that digital versions of this release appear not to include this track.

[Peter Friedman]

One of the qualities I find interesting is the versitility of both Hank Jones and Tommy Flanagan. By that I mean how they seemed able to fit well with musicians of broad stylistic approaches to the music.

Both of them played / recorded with Pee Wee Russell, Coleman Hawkins, Johnny Hodges, Pepper Adams, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, and John Coltrane to name just a few.

Hank even recorded with Anthony Braxton as well as Yank Lawson.