Christiern Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Chris... 34 failed albums? That might be a little harsh, my man. His debut was great (especially the tracks with Tony/Ron/Herbie), and Black Codes is hands down one of the best jazz albums of the 80's. Let's not forget about In This House, On This Morning, either, which is a truly great album. Fine, he's not Freddie Hubbard, he's not Lee Morgan, and he's not Charles Tolliver. But who is? Musically speaking, no, he's not the messiah that Heaney makes him out to be...but he's far from the hack that you make him out to be as well, Chris. When I say "failed," I do not mean terrible, I just mean that they have failed to establish Wynton, musically, on a level that is commensurate with his highly-hyped image. There are good performances among them, but there are no great performances. Mind you, I am not suggesting that every musician must contribute at least one great performance--of course not--but every musician is not given the extraordinary opportunities and non-musical recognition Wynton enjoys. Because of that, I think he has to be judged by a different standard. The standard was different when he started out with Blakey, because he was young and inexperienced. Thus reviewers (myself included) bore that in mind and, considering that, he was impressive and promising. When the PR machine took over and prematurely hoisted him onto his pedestal, he was forced to meet higher expectations--but he didn't. Wynton is laughing all the way to the bank--his wallet and ego are possibly over-fed, but when the LC job is over and the spotlight finds someone else to focus on, Wynton will be able to look back on a career marked more by success than by achievement. Thus, IMO, he may well be the ultimate victim of all this. It is of course possible that Wynton never would have developed musically, even if he had had to pay his dues, as they say, but he just might have. As it is, I perceive very little creativity, no originality, and only sporadic bursts of uncontrived emotion. So, I do not consider Wynton a "hack," just a performer who is impressively skilled, technically, but never really developed a true feel for jazz. I think he often displays poor taste, at least I would say that he does things that I find esthetically offensive. Those gratuitous, exaggerated growls, for example bring to mind Diana Schuur's wretched excesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Chris wrote: When I say "failed," I do not mean terrible, I just mean that they have failed to establish Wynton, musically, on a level that is commensurate with his highly-hyped image. There are good performances among them, but there are no great performances. Mind you, I am not suggesting that every musician must contribute at least one great performance--of course not--but every musician is not given the extraordinary opportunities and non-musical recognition Wynton enjoys. Because of that, I think he has to be judged by a different standard. The standard was different when he started out with Blakey, because he was young and inexperienced. Thus reviewers (myself included) bore that in mind and, considering that, he was impressive and promising. When the PR machine took over and prematurely hoisted him onto his pedestal, he was forced to meet higher expectations--but he didn't. Bearing in mind that I substantially agree with your evaluation of the releases themselves (except this last one, but I haven't lived with it long enough to be any too certain there) . . . Anyhow, I wonder about your use of a different yardstick for WM because he's been offered greater opportunities than many others. I think we might say that a certain responsibility comes with the sort of opportunity he's been given, but to my mind he's always acted as if he were fully cognizant of that sort of responsibility, and that's all we can ask from him. (You may disagree.) One can't be under a moral responsibility to be aesthetically great or even wise. There's very different realms involved in each of these. In fact, I'd argue that the sense of responsibility he's under is one of the things that's held him back from fulfilling the potential many saw in him. And I don't really see him laughing all the way to the bank, either. Though I have no personal acquaintance with him, he's never really struck me this way. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave James Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 The only Wynton I have is the Village Vanguard set. I think there's some awfully good music included among these CD's but I doubt I'll ever feel the need to add anything more of his to my collection. Up over and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 (edited) "Anyhow, I wonder about your use of a different yardstick for WM because he's been offered greater opportunities than many others."--EricSorry, I worded that wrong. I didn't mean that greater opportunities deman greater performance, per se, just that, to put it plainly, Wynton does not perform as advertised. We are used to seeing highly advertised yet inferior products take the market (Microsoft comes to mind), and haven't we all been disappointed when "the best" turns out not to be? Conversely, have we not been delighted to find an off-brand of superior quality? When I first heard Wynton perform, he was an off-brand of superior quality--now he is the household name that does not live up to its performance claims."I think we might say that a certain responsibility comes with the sort of opportunity he's been given, but to my mind he's always acted as if he were fully cognizant of that sort of responsibility, and that's all we can ask from him. (You may disagree.)"--EricI agree, up to a point. I don't think Wynton has failed in his LC job (although I wish they had appointed someone whose scope is broader), I do think he has failed to live up to the musical promises he held some 20 years and 33 albums ago. He does a good job, but it is hampered by his limited vision of jazz."One can't be under a moral responsibility to be aesthetically great or even wise. There's very different realms involved in each of these."--EricI absolutely agree with you here. Aesthetics is a vague area--one man's is not another's, etc.--but I was not faulting Wynton for bruising my aesthetic sense, just noting that he often doies, and giving that as one reason for me not being enthusiastic."In fact, I'd argue that the sense of responsibility he's under is one of the things that's held him back from fulfilling the potential many saw in him. "--EricThat's exactly the point I was trying to make when I suggested that Wynton may well be a victim of all the hoopla. I do not expect a musician to adhere to the schedule Wynton obviously follows and have the time it takes to develop as a performer. That's why I said that he might have become a noteworthy player (musically noteworthy, that is) had it not been for an all too early coronation and that it brings with it. I think it has adversely affected his personality as well as his work--the Wynton I see interviewed these days is very different from the Wynton I interviewed in the 1980s. Edited March 11, 2004 by Christiern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Disclosure: I own no WM albums, I've never been able to relate to his music: there's always been a coldness and impersonality to it to my ears. Wynton cold and impersonal? Well, you haven´t heard this new cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Disclosure: I own no WM albums, I've never been able to relate to his music: there's always been a coldness and impersonality to it to my ears. Wynton cold and impersonal? Well, you haven´t heard this new cat "the robot has yet to be given a cute name" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Chris- Thanks for the engaging reply. That's why I said that he might have become a noteworthy player (musically noteworthy, that is) had it not been for an all too early coronation and that it brings with it. I think it has adversely affected his personality as well as his work--the Wynton I see interviewed these days is very different from the Wynton I interviewed in the 1980s. Well, he ain't dead yet. And while there's life . . . --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 "the robot has yet to be given a cute name" Wait for it now . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 "the robot has yet to be given a cute name" The Electric Miles B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Tinny Dorham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Chip Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Cold Lips Page? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 R2 Db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 or R2 Bb, since it IS a trumpet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Razor Shavers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Plastic Shaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 I bought this CD and think it sucks. It is almost like "Jazz 101" or "Jazz For People That Don't Like Jazz". The styles are all over the place and none of them are very successful, IMHO. There are moments where his playing sounds nice, but then he moves on to something else, usually something with a "retro" feel. Out of respect for the guy, I try to listen, but my mind soon wanders and I lose focus. Kind of sad ... working "hard" to listen to something that returns little in return. Sadly, this doesn't feel like a particularly honest effort. Or perhaps it is, in which case I have zero interest in the guy from an artistic point of view. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 "Can't Anderson" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Fine, he's not Freddie Hubbard, he's not Lee Morgan, and he's not Charles Tolliver. But who is? Well, Art Farmer perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 They keep PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING this thing on KNTU and I keep TRYING and TRYING and TRYING and TRYING and TRYING to like it, or to at least "hear" it, and it just ain't happenin'. My self-confessed "Wynton Syndrome" is in full effect on this one - the opening moments catch my attention and spur hope, but I... just...... can't........ stay .......................focused and before you know it, my attention has wandered off somewhere else. Is there such a thing as "Teflon in reverse", something where you can't stick to it? Because if there is, this album qualifies. I don't DISlike it, I'm just...indifferent. If I didn't have it exposing itself to me on a seemingly hourly basis on the radio, I'd not say anything. But I do, so I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 They keep PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING and PLAYING this thing on KNTU and I keep TRYING and TRYING and TRYING and TRYING and TRYING to like it, or to at least "hear" it, and it just ain't happenin'. My self-confessed "Wynton Syndrome" is in full effect on this one - the opening moments catch my attention and spur hope, but I... just...... can't........ stay .......................focused and before you know it, my attention has wandered off somewhere else. Is there such a thing as "Teflon in reverse", something where you can't stick to it? Because if there is, this album qualifies. I don't DISlike it, I'm just...indifferent. If I didn't have it exposing itself to me on a seemingly hourly basis on the radio, I'd not say anything. But I do, so I am. substitute "I keep playing it in my car" and ditto the rest ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 I think that you guys just need to hear it one more time before it really clicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 I might hear SOMETHING click... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 (edited) I think that you guys just need to hear it one more time before it really clicks. But it only takes one playing to hear that it really sucks. This is not the album that will redeem Wynton--as so many people thought it would. Edited May 4, 2004 by Christiern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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