Germany and the Birth of Jazz Fusion

[Rabshakeh]

I recently read somewhere that part of Gary Burton's influence when recording his very early fusion records was a trip that he had taken to Germany in the mid-60s. The article made it sound like there was some sort of proto-fusion scene in Germany at the time which Burton heard and inspired his new sound.

I have been trying to recall / find where I read this, but I cannot find it unfortunately.  Perhaps it was a comment on this forum rather than an article.

Does anyone know whether there was a fusion or near fusion or electric jazz scene in 1960s Germany (I assume West Germany is meant)? I had never heard of it. I am familiar with the emerging British jazz rock tendancies of the time, but had never heard of Germany mentioned in this regard.

[Niko]

The band that comes to mind here is the Dave Pike Set... More as a plausible inspiration for Burton though than as Proto-Fusion

[Rabshakeh]

I think that makes sense for Burton, but what is the German connection? Was David Pike based there?

[Niko]

oh yes

 

 

[Rabshakeh]

That clip really does show the link to Burton, as well as Zappa. 

Thanks.

[mjazzg]

I'm not sure how this fits in, if at all (others will know) but Gilles P played a great track by the German band Embryo last week.  Sounded a fusion of jazz and krautrock to my uneducated ears.  From the 70s, so maybe inheritors of some of the same influences.

[Niko]

 

just playing this for the first time on spotify, the band that would turn into the Dave Pike Set a bit later... hard to say whether there's Proto-Fusion on here...  and indeed, there was Krautrock, where many people had some jazz connections (also e.g. Jaki Liebezeit who was one of the founders of Can around 1968)

[Rabshakeh]

29 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I'm not sure how this fits in, if at all (others will know) but Gilles P played a great track by the German band Embryo last week.  Sounded a fusion of jazz and krautrock to my uneducated ears.  From the 70s, so maybe inheritors of some of the same influences.

Embryo I know, and there is also primetime era German fusion (Passport!). I agree on the Krautrock / Kosmische link, similar to the link between fusion and the most Canturburyiest wing of prog in the UK. 

30 minutes ago, Niko said:

 

just playing this for the first time on spotify, the band that would turn into the Dave Pike Set a bit later..

Is this well known / recommended? I don't think I know him.

[Niko]

Kriegel and Baumeister are half the Dave Pike set from that video above, but a bit earlier... the live recordings in the bonus material of that album are quite nice actually, some of them... I guess Kriegel's best known album is the one after this one, Spectrum

[JSngry]

Maybe semantic quibbling, maybe not, but in my mind, "jazz-rock" and "fusion" are different things, the former definitely setting up the latter, but not really being it.

If anything, the word "fusion" sort of implies the removal of the hyphen from "jazz-rock".

Of course, as with all semantic quibbling, that's all it is - semantic quibbling.

[Rabshakeh]

40 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Maybe semantic quibbling, maybe not, but in my mind, "jazz-rock" and "fusion" are different things, the former definitely setting up the latter, but not really being it.

If anything, the word "fusion" sort of implies the removal of the hyphen from "jazz-rock".

Of course, as with all semantic quibbling, that's all it is - semantic quibbling.

It’s not just quibbling, I think. There’s plenty of mid/late 1960s British musicians who were playing rock with what was billed as jazz chops and influence, which was very clearly not fusion or really jazz Tony ears. So “jazz rock” makes sense as a separate term. I was just wondering whether there was an equivalently proto fusion tendency in Germany, and what it’s connection would be toBurton, of all people.

1 hour ago, Niko said:

Kriegel and Baumeister are half the Dave Pike set from that video above, but a bit earlier... the live recordings in the bonus material of that album are quite nice actually, some of them... I guess Kriegel's best known album is the one after this one, Spectrum

Thanks

[JSngry]

Just now, Rabshakeh said:

It’s not just quibbling, I think. There’s plenty of mid/late 1960s British musicians who were playing rock with what was billed as jazz chops and influence, which was very clearly not fusion or really jazz Tony ears. So “jazz rock” makes sense as a separate term. I was just wondering whether there was an equivalently proto fusion tendency in Germany, and what it’s connection would be toBurton, of all people.

Thanks

I slept on those Dave Pike Set MPS records at the time b/c I associated him with a more "easy" style. In retrospect, those records were not that at all. So yeah, there was them, and yes, Volker Krieger. And Passport (specifically Doldinger who had one of his early records released on Pacific Jazz (although I don't recall it being really jazz-rock or anything.

https://www.discogs.com/release/12509190-The-Klaus-Doldinger-Quartet-Blues-Happening/image/SW1hZ2U6MzYwNzc1NTM

But if you want to connect some tenuous dots...look for whatever nexus existed between MPS records, Berklee, and Richard Bock/Pacific Jazz (who was dealing in both George Duke and Jean Luc Ponty.

Bottom line, imo, it was going to happen, no matter what or where, impossible for it not to happen. And it was going to happen anywhere there were people were wanting to do it to see what happened. "Europe" had become host of a slew of American ex-pats, so people were learning to play real, not imitative. and if you got it in you to play and not just imitate, you will see where it takes you.

This is an interesting read:

I had this record for a quick minute, didn't do anything for me, to be honest. But it did happen!

[medjuck]

9 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I recently read somewhere that part of Gary Burton's influence when recording his very early fusion records  

Which ones are his early fusion records?

[JSngry]

Duster would be considered the first, right? The group with Coryell.

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

This is an interesting read:

 

I had this record for a quick minute, didn't do anything for me, to be honest. But it did happen!

The radio discussion gets a whole chapter in Shoemaker's book Jazz in the 1970s.

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Duster would be considered the first, right? The group with Coryell.

That's the one I was thinking of. 

[JSngry]

I guess it might be interesting that there's no licensing credits on the Pacific Jazz record...did it come out in Germany in any form? Ok, on German Liberty: So I guess this was an indigenous to the label product, in 1969.https://www.discogs.com/release/3808302-The-Klaus-Doldinger-Quartet-Blues-Happening

The fine print on the publishing is interesting, though, as the LABEL shows it to be the usual corplabel thing:

German label:

[mikeweil]

By the end of the 1960's there was quite a number of German jazz bred musicians experiemnting with rock rhythms - rock was their point of reference in most cases, although some played with black soul bands temporarily based in Germany. (I played in a local fusion band - Zyma - whose bassist was with Archie Bell & The Drells when they were over here.) Dave Pike & Volker Kriegel, Doldinger  & Ingfried Hofmann were just the best known. Take Wolfgang Dauner's groups, Etcetera in particular, into account. Mal Waldron gigged with Embryo. There was a local group called Xhol Caravan which just had a reunion concert. 

You can find info on all these albums as well as links to YouTube samples on discogs. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by mikeweil

[GA Russell]

1) I think of jazz-rock as jazz musicians playing with a rock drummer.  Larry Coryell, Steve Marcus, If, Manfred Mann Chapter Three, etc.

2) I was lucky and came across Blues Happening when it was new.  One side (I think it was Side 1) is one of my most favorite records.

3) Mike beat me to mentioning Wolfgang Dauner.  I have an album called Rischkas Soul (it should be Rischka's Soul), which showed that his heart was in the right place.