medjuck Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 What's the vamp being played by the orchestra under the openng titles? Is it Gil's arrangment for "It Ain't Necessarily So"? BTW the show was recorded just a month after So What was originally recorded and between the 2 KOB sessions. Given Gil Evans's reputation for slowness it suggests that both Evanses -- Bill and Gil-- may have been involved in some of the composing for KOB. (And what's the correct spelling of the plural of "Evans"?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Are you referring to the Robert Herridge show appearance? I can't remember specifically, but I've always thought that "So What" was melodically an answer to "It Ain't Necessarily So." Miles and Gil in the fifties. . . hardly gets better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 I can't remember specifically, but I've always thought that "So What" was melodically an answer to "It Ain't Necessarily So." You can add "New Rhumba" to the mix too, the way the bass plays the melody inbetween chordal punctuations. I'm realizing that the whole modal thing was hardly a sudden innovation, but was instead an evolutionary inevitability, and if you go backwards, there's landmarks aplenty. especially in the work w/Gil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 I'm realizing that the whole modal thing was hardly a sudden innovation, but was instead an evolutionary inevitability, and if you go backwards, there's landmarks aplenty. In my listening these days, and as I hear it, all those landmarks would seem to point to George Russell and his musical conception. To me, his RCA Jazz Workshop could be subtitled "Birth of the Modal." And, who was Russell's pianist of choice? Bill Evans. I think Evans's contribution to Kind of Blue, which I think was crucial, was fortified by his experience with Russell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) I agree that the modal "thing" was evolutionary... to follow up LATE'S comments, one also needs to listen to Gil Evans' arrangements on the Hal McKusick Jazz Workshop Album (RCA) .. especially the early version of "Blues For Pablo" ... this album has been unjustly neglected in the face of the George Russell album (which IS superior, but not by much), and deserves wider appreciation. Other compositions on this album such as Russell's "The Day John Brown Was Hanged," and "Lydian Lullaby" also point the way ... Damn! It is so good to see people rediscovering this great music again, and to be able to share my enthusiasm. I sometimes wondered if I was the only person the world who loved this stuff! Garth. Edited April 22, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 ... to follow up Brad's comments ... Strange that you mention this one. I just listened to it last night. A good trivia question: Who was the first trumpet player to record "Blues for Pablo." Answer: That's easy! Miles Da-- ... oh. Art Farmer. Kind of Blue is of course the landmark "modal" album, but — taking nothing away from this sublime recording — it's certainly not the "first." Both Russell's and McKusick's Jazz Workshop albums stake an earlier claim to "modal" writing, and ... what else? I sometimes wonder if Sun Ra's work from around 1954-58 might be considered "modal" in the conventional sense ... and if Russell ever heard Ra around this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 ... to follow up Brad's comments ... Sorry 'bout that misattribution Late .... I made the correction .. bad form for a supposed scholar like me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 No problem. I just thought maybe Brad had posted, and then deleted his post. Well, we've gotten off on a fine tangent here! Sorry Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) Well, we've gotten off on a fine tangent here! Sorry Joe. Well, knowing Joe to be the gentleman and former scholar that he is, I am sure he does not mind wandering down this serendipitous road, as long as the discussion is on jazz ... and after all this does deal with the antecendents to Miles's work with Gil Evans .... right, Joe? Edited April 22, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 ... and, after all, this does deal with the antecendents to Miles's work with Gil Evans ... Dig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) Huh? For the record, I didn't post here. However, reading this thread has given me a taste to look for those albums. Edited April 22, 2004 by Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 ... reading this thread has given me a taste to look for those albums. Just like those potato chips, one taste ... and you'll want the whole album. Low calorie, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted April 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 (edited) No problem. I just thought maybe Brad had posted, and then deleted his post. Well, we've gotten off on a fine tangent here! Sorry Joe. In the meantime I went back to the cd myself and the vamp does seem to be the one from "It Ain't...". Though not listed as such in any discographies. Even Peter Losin's excellent Miles Aheaad site just calls it a fragment of "So What". Edited April 22, 2004 by medjuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 I'm late to join in here - just heard the McKusick parts on that Bluebird "Arrangers" compilation (thanks to mikeweil ). Really fascinating music. Also, it's great to hear Evans AND Russell on the same disc. Would be one hell of a Mosaic, collecting the RCA Victor Jazz Workshop albums! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Would be one hell of a Mosaic, collecting the RCA Victor Jazz Workshop albums! That would be one hell of a Mosaic! Have RCA/Victor recordings — especially from the 1950's — ever been leased by Mosaic? Here's another Jazz Workshop album: Don't know this one, but I'm sure someone here has it. Manny Albam also had a Jazz Workshop album on RCA. Who else recorded one? I dig the little "Jazz" logo used for each album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 (edited) DAMN!! More than half of my CDs are still in boxes, so I can't get to all of them to confirm what I "think" I remember... But there is definitely an Al Cohn "Jazz Worshop" album as well the ones we have already mentioned, and I think that there might be a Billy Byers one as well. The Hal Schaefer shown is the weakest of the lot as I recall. Combining two threads on this list.. the ideal Mosaic Box would be to have THREE series in one wonderful box ... The RCA Jazz Worshop Series (6 LPs) The Decca Jaaz Studio Series (6 LPs) The Decca Jazz Lab Series. (2 LPs). I would gladly pay real money (0r beads, whatever) for a nicely remastered box of this stuff! Edited April 23, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 "Jazz Workshop," "Jazz Studio" and "Jazz Lab"? Yes, here's the Cohn "Jazz Workshop" album: Haven't heard it, but I did at one time own the Byers "Jazz Workshop" album ... and sold it! Probably shouldn't have, but alas. Had a memorable Phil Woods (on clarinet) solo, if memory serves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue lake Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 (edited) "Kind of Blue is of course the landmark "modal" album, but — taking nothing away from this sublime recording — it's certainly not the "first." Both Russell's and McKusick's Jazz Workshop albums stake an earlier claim to "modal" writing, and ... what else? I sometimes wonder if Sun Ra's work from around 1954-58 might be considered "modal" in the conventional sense ... and if Russell ever heard Ra around this time? " There's a lot of discussion of this subject in Ashley Kahn's book about Kind of Blue, and perhaps they pointed to Ellington's "Koko" as an example of organizing part of a performance on a mode. The use of modes for cadenzas and other unaccompanied segments within an other ways structured composition is also part of Kahn's discussion. "Swing Spring" from the 1954 Miles Davis, Milt Jackson, Thelonious Monk Christmas Eve session may answer your question, and of course "Milestones." As for Ra, that may be. Would be worth a listen to find out. Edited April 24, 2004 by blue lake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 "Swing Spring" from the 1954 Miles Davis, Milt Jackson, Thelonious Monk Christmas Eve session may answer your question ... Yes, I do hear this, but for some reason I always hear "Swing Spring" as using "pedal point" harmony rather than "modal" writing, though the two might not really be all that different. Maybe someone more musically versed could explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alankin Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 What was the Jazz Workshop series? Is there a connection between the different volumes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 What was the Jazz Workshop series? Is there a connection between the different volumes? This was a series of albums released by RCA in the mid-fifties. Basically they were marketed as something a little more experimental than the usual jazz album of the time. In fact, only two of the albums, that by George Russell and Hal McKusick were really "experimental" and these two are connected in terms of personnel and arrangers. The other albums were essentially stand-alones displaying the arranger talents of Hal Schaeffer, Billy Byers, and Al Cohn. All five albums have been reissued by RCA in Europe, and can be found on the Blue Moon website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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