Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Hardbopjazz

Art Blakey 3/8/59 Unreleased Blue Note Sess

94 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, hgweber said:

btw i am convinced that the grant green sessions (the one with kelly an the trio standards date) were only released to cash in on the grant green "revival" a few years back. both are not very good, to put it mildly. grant seems starstruck on the kelly date and totally uninspired on the standards date.

otoh, he is totally on fire on the unreleased date with quebec...

Grant might be on fire but the rest of the band really isn't playing that great. As much as I like Ike Quebec, this is not a good date for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, bresna said:

Grant might be on fire but the rest of the band really isn't playing that great. As much as I like Ike Quebec, this is not a good date for him.

grant isn't good on standards either. on the whole, the trio session is much worse than the quebec imo. so i dont really buy the aesthetic angle there. and does it have to be good to be released? is there no historic value to the recordings of the best in their field? i understand if it*s not released because of money. but surely there are no reputations at stake?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hgweber said:

grant isn't good on standards either. on the whole, the trio session is much worse than the quebec imo. so i dont really buy the aesthetic angle there. and does it have to be good to be released? is there no historic value to the recordings of the best in their field? i understand if it*s not released because of money. but surely there are no reputations at stake?

I'm going to be so bold as to channel Chuck here.

Sigh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

I'm going to be so bold as to channel Chuck here.

Sigh.

i'm sure you're trying to be condescending but i'm appearently even to thick for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

I'm going to be so bold as to channel Chuck here.

Sigh.

LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Cash In" is a funny term in Jazz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Grant plays great on Standards myself. Lining his lines up with Wilbur Ware's is quite stimulating. I'm not really thrilled with Al Harewood on the date, though, and that azimuth issue, although better on CD than on LP is problematic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would guess any date with Wilbur Ware is worth issuing

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

LOL!

Care to elaborate? ;)

Why would you want to "sigh" there too?

What WOULD be at stake by issuing sessions like this in the first place? Like hgweber rightly said, it would no longer be a matter of reputations - for several reasons that no doubt you in your position are fully aware of:
1) Just look at how many sessions have been issued AND reissued through the years that do not exactly rank among the top-notch recorded output of an artist and YET they are appreciated by many.
2) There are tons of fans of any artist and/or style of music (jazz, in this case) who'd swallow ANY utterance by their favorite artist. So this IS a matter of fandom and at the VERY least most of those fans would go to any lengths to focus above all on the positive aspects of these sessions and find something more than worthwhile in them, particularly maybe in the case of Grant Green where the dispute rages anyway about what and from what point onwards was to be considered of mainly "commercial" and not exactly artistic appeal, so no doubt there'd be many who'd appreciate another "new" "not yet commercial" all-out jazz recording regardless of what flaws it might have had.
3) Even if the music is below the "usual" standards of an artist's typical output I'd guess there'd be more than enough buyers/listeners who
a) would either approach these recordings from an "academic" POV (or so they claim) to observe and analyze this as a sort of "work in progress". An entire session that did not turn out "right" (according to some - not all, as this dicussion shows) is not fundamentally different from fluffed, goofed or aborted alternate takes that DID see release anyway (to the delight of many) even though they never were considered "alternate" but rather "rejected" takes at the time; or
b) would be curious enough (though I would NOT call it voyeurism) to want to explore even the weaker or more unstable phases of an artist's recorded career in an attempt of obtaining completeness or peering into those sides of the lives of the artists as expressed at a moment of their weaker or less inspired recordings. Precedents abound on what was issued in this manner on other artists before.

Who has the final objective (!!) word (not just the clout to nix a release) on what is favorable to an artist's recorded legacy or not? If THAT was any yardstick, how much of what Lester Young or Coleman Hawkins or Bud Powell recorded (to name just three) in the rock-bottom phases or twilight of their careers should never have been released at all? And YET many drool about these sessions for a variety of reasons. Maybe even some of those who'd cry out "heresy" if those Blakey or Green sessions were released in due form? So it would NOT be a matter of "why more of the same (imperfect) stuff" either but rather a matter of letting everyone find those aspects of interest in there that they DO want to find there.

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its fair to say that record producers/label owners like Lion and Wolf promise their artists that they will 'put their best foot forward'. There are plenty of scummy characters of the time who recorded and issued haphazardly but they probably weren't the ones who paid for rehearsal time.

MC is following in Alfred's footsteps and I think its fitting and proper. There is no right to hear everything from an artist and no one should look at tape vaults like an all-you-can-eat buffet. 

Everybody who has heard these issues knows that there are faults with every one of them.  None of them live up to an average issued session (and if you need extensive editing to piece together an especially good take, that right there is a good indication that it wasn't happening.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I would guess any date with Wilbur Ware is worth issuing

 

Pretty solid guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious, non-rhetorical question:  What are the best  takes that were eventually released  but originally unreleased in favor of other takes.  (Hard sentence to write so that it sort of makes sense. )  I'd start with the recently issued alternates from the first Basie/Prez session. 

And are there any whole sessions that were supposedly unreleased because of quality that now seem worthwhile.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, medjuck said:

Serious, non-rhetorical question:  What are the best  takes that were eventually released  but originally unreleased in favor of other takes.  (Hard sentence to write so that it sort of makes sense. )  I'd start with the recently issued alternates from the first Basie/Prez session. 

Mode for Joe alternate take first released in Japan for Blue Note's 75th anniversary on UCCQ-5120 is one that has been mentioned before. Incidentally, it was recorded after the master take.

(PS I'm not saying it's my opinion that it's better.)

Edited by erwbol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I think its fair to say that record producers/label owners like Lion and Wolf promise their artists that they will 'put their best foot forward'. There are plenty of scummy characters of the time who recorded and issued haphazardly but they probably weren't the ones who paid for rehearsal time.

MC is following in Alfred's footsteps and I think its fitting and proper. There is no right to hear everything from an artist and no one should look at tape vaults like an all-you-can-eat buffet. 

Everybody who has heard these issues knows that there are faults with every one of them.  None of them live up to an average issued session (and if you need extensive editing to piece together an especially good take, that right there is a good indication that it wasn't happening.)

-running blue note records in 1959 is not the same as curating the historic cataloge in 2019. if a jazz messenger session didn't work out in 1959, no problem, just schedule another session. we do not have that luxury. and why would it be worth a sigh if someone wants to listen beyond the official? i thought that was normal, lol.

-of course there is no "right" to hear everything, who claimed that? is there some sort of "moral" obligation not to let historically important works of art rot in a basement until they burn one day? maybe? in other art forms it is rather common to donate pieces of art to a museum. is it so laughable that a 1959 jazz messenger recording might be dotated to some institute? or BN records opening their own historic website, podcast, youtube channel or whatever? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who says any of it is "art" belonging in a museum or the equivalent?

Its working musicians having, at best, a mediocre day.  For someone who agrees that there is no right to hear everything, you surely seem to think that everything should be heard, because the musicians are famous now and long dead. And its "art".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The session that started this thread certainly does not seem historically important to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been released to the wild without the consent of the owners, so I'll say that "art" has been served, the etiquette/social contract of consensual commerce, not so much. Some days you when, sometimes you lose. Score's the same either way, the variable is what team you're on and/or rooting for, if you have one. Either way, we all like our souvenirs.

Bottom line - it's there if you want to go to where it is. Proceed accordingly and drive your own bus.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welp, it’s getting an official release now, for better or worse.  I’ll pick it up, bearing Mark Stryker’s caveat in mind from the thread I started today about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.