Christiern Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Sorry, I had no idea you were such a Music Industry Insider. And yet you don't seem to know Musicboy. I guess the industry isn't as small as it used to be. Dan, I think I might be regarded as somewhat of a music insider, but I have no idea who "Musicboy" is. I know there was some kind of controversy involving him here, recently, but I missed it. I gather that he is obnoxious, but that does not narrow the field much when it comes to the music industry--who is he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tapscott Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 I didn't think Blue Note would be stupid enough to pay Sony type money to someone who is a washout from another label. I wouldn't call him a washout. He was at Sony 20+ years (which is a long time for anyone) and made far more recordings than I can even name. I actually think that's the problem. Likely he made too many recordings for Sony. And most of them weren't cheap to produce (and often, to buy) - big band recordings, multi-disc boxes, symphonies, etc. etc. Someone else said it, but Sony probably overestimated the market (as record companies often do) The market just couldn't absorb it all. I have some WM CD's I really enjoy and others I'm not crazy about. But I think his best recordings are very good indeed. And when you record as much as he did for Sony, the output is bound to be uneven artistically and salewise, too, I would imagine. A washout at Sony - well, the ending wasn't so good, but I wouldn't call him a washout at all. Sony's going to do OK over the years with his catalogue, as I'm sure they' done with Miles and Brubeck and others. Now if Blue Note goes about this the right way, fiscally conservative and musically adventurous (and I'm betting Wynton would be open to this) this could very good for everyone. I'm looking forward to the first CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Beats me, Chris. If you read those Norah Jones threads you'd learn that "obnoxious" doesn't really cover it when it comes to musicboy. And Chris, you're slipping. Two pages into a WM thread and this is your first post, and its not even germane to the discussion? C'mon! I know you never bought into the mythologizing of the Lion/Wolff years, but still, doesn't WM deserve an Albertson razz on the occasion of his signing a BN contract? He's no longer a label-less refugee, aimlessly walking from company to company, hat in hand! The least he deserves is a "Alfred Lion is doing loop-de-loops in his grave" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 ...but I have no idea who "Musicboy" is. I know there was some kind of controversy involving him here, recently, but I missed it. I gather that he is obnoxious, but that does not narrow the field much when it comes to the music industry--who is he? I started a new thread to answer this. Here's a link to it... Who the hell is "Musicboy"????, If you don't know, this will explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 It also means our friends Chris and Hardbop will have to limit their WM argument to the 2-3 other boards they post on and not on Blue Notes future BBS. Wait just a gosh-darned minute there! That may just be the kind of thing that might get me back to the BN board when (or if) they return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn·m Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 No, I still don’t understand the hard feelings toward Wynton. I guess that’s not likely to change. In the meantime, I’ll still hold out hope for a Wynton/Lovano paring (ideally in a piano-less quartet setting, but as guest with Lovano’s nonet could be interesting too). I certainly hope Wynton’s first Blue Note recording isn’t a duet with Nora interpreting Billie Holiday/Dr. John tunes with Osby producing. That should thoroughly offend just about everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Told you guys about this months and months ago. First record will be a duet record with Norah Jones, they'll do "What A Wonderful World" and that I say tomato you say tomatoe song (I forgot what it's called). Yes, Wynton will sing, he has quite a nice voice actually. OK, I don't think it's a smart signing but let's get real. This won't have much of any effect on the overall business of Blue Note. Whoever said they thought this was a one-off with many options is probably right as most contacts for jazz recordings are like that. Blue Note probably will let him go before long he loses them the kind of money he lost for Sony. Remember he made 20 plus records for them, Blue Note won't let it come to that.That said, whoever said this ain't really Blue Note anymore anyway is right. Blue Note is a major label now. Big corporation, big business, make money etc. They keep Osby and Moran around for artistic credibility and out of respect for the Blue Note tradition but these folks are here to make money, a lot of money. That's their business, never lose sight of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) #1, mnytime, its a press release. Did you expect brutal honesty or the usual puffery? Secondly, you really don't know if "no other label would go near him with a fifty foot pole". Obviously, in the current climate, no one was going to come close to his old Sony contract, but at the same time, it was inevitable that WM would sign with a new label. Here's an idea that is sure to offend WM's legion of detractors: He should take his faux-Ellington arrangements and apply them to the greatest tunes from Blue Note history, like Moanin' or Sidewinder, No Room For Squares, Footprints ... believe it or not, I'd want to hear it. Ummm yes I know it is a press release but it's still funny as hell and yes I do know actually when I say no other major would come near him and I am not talking about Sony money. You should not assume to know what I might or might not know. Sorry, I had no idea you were such a Music Industry Insider. And yet you don't seem to know Musicboy. I guess the industry isn't as small as it used to be. I am not sure what someone who is a legend in his own demented mind has to do with anything I posted? Edited June 3, 2003 by Mnytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn·m Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Don't tell me you actually believed that a moderator of a BBS is someone that is considered a major insider? …or that Dali didn’t know his way around the female keister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 I didn't think Blue Note would be stupid enough to pay Sony type money to someone who is a washout from another label. I wouldn't call him a washout. He was at Sony 20+ years (which is a long time for anyone) and made far more recordings than I can even name. I actually think that's the problem. Likely he made too many recordings for Sony. And most of them weren't cheap to produce (and often, to buy) - big band recordings, multi-disc boxes, symphonies, etc. etc. Someone else said it, but Sony probably overestimated the market (as record companies often do) The market just couldn't absorb it all. I have some WM CD's I really enjoy and others I'm not crazy about. But I think his best recordings are very good indeed. And when you record as much as he did for Sony, the output is bound to be uneven artistically and salewise, too, I would imagine. A washout at Sony - well, the ending wasn't so good, but I wouldn't call him a washout at all. Sony's going to do OK over the years with his catalogue, as I'm sure they' done with Miles and Brubeck and others. Now if Blue Note goes about this the right way, fiscally conservative and musically adventurous (and I'm betting Wynton would be open to this) this could very good for everyone. I'm looking forward to the first CD. John I was speaking from the point of view of Sony that WM was a washout. You will have to take my word on it that they would have loved to dump him a good many years earlier. He never lived up to the hype they made for him and by the end was more of a negative than a positive to have around. When I announced he was being dumped on the Blue Note BBS 3 years ago I figured the only way he was going to record was on his own indie label. I am honestly surprised that EMI/Blue Note signed him. It's not like they had any competition for him. He is supposed to be the "Musical Artist of our Time" but it took him 3+ years to finally convince a label to sign him. No major act that sells no matter what style of music stays a free agent for more than a few weeks at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 The least he deserves is a "Alfred Lion is doing loop-de-loops in his grave" I felt the eart kinda wobble, Dan, but I didn't want to state the obvious. It was a double-wobble, guess old Wolf is spinning, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) John Tapscott: Now if Blue Note goes about this the right way, fiscally conservative and musically adventurous (and I'm betting Wynton would be open to this) this could very good for everyone. I'm looking forward to the first CD. Fiscally conservative--He'll balk, but I think that can be done. Musically adventurous? John, we are talking about a rigid, stuck-in-a-bad-groove guy who would not recognize an original musical thought if it splashed against his ears! A guy whose "good" performances are few and far between, and have to be qualified. Well, at least Crouch will get a chance to write his English 101 fictionalized praise for another label. Edited June 3, 2003 by Christiern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Musically adventurous? John, we are talking about a rigid, stuck-in-a-bad-groove guy who would not recognize an original musical thought if it splashed against his ears! A guy whose "good" performances are few and far between, and have to be qualified. Chris, will you at least admit that what Wynton will cut for Blue Note is better and far "more adventurous" than some of that smooth pablum that other "Blue Note Artists" are putting out? It would help restore my faith that you aren't simply looking for an opprtunity for another Wynton hatefest. I was serious when I asked people to go listen to that Jackson track... listen to it and then say that what Wynton will play is gonna be worse. Later, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed S Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 .....there was this big plaque on the wall proclaiming Blue Note the "Smooth Jazz Label of the Year" for 2001. Yikes. I'm still having a hard time getting over that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed S Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 I still can't get over it. I mean I know you have to make money and all that, but Manhattan was a nice conduit for that sort of stuff. I guess it shows how much respect the corporate folks have for the Blue Note legacy. But did they really HAVE to hang it in the lobby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Maybe one of these days BN will manage to pry Yanni away from Vivendi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Musically adventurous? John, we are talking about a rigid, stuck-in-a-bad-groove guy who would not recognize an original musical thought if it splashed against his ears! A guy whose "good" performances are few and far between, and have to be qualified. Chris, will you at least admit that what Wynton will cut for Blue Note is better and far "more adventurous" than some of that smooth pablum that other "Blue Note Artists" are putting out? Blue Note has indeed scraped the bottom on occasion, but while Wynton is capable of decent performances, his work has not exactly been memorable--not in a positive way. What bothers me here is that Wynton is clearly signed for the wrong reasons. He has written some horrendous extended stuff, so it's obviously not the composer they are after, and his playing is, at best, acceptable. Too often, when people say that something by Wynton is good (the Vanguard recordings, for example) they mean good for Wynton, because he is the yardstick, and the bulk of his recordings have failed to capture people's imagination. As bland as the worst of Blue Note has been, I still can't see Wynton doing anything that is remotely adventurous--not only has his music never been venturesome, he has been quite vocal in putting down players who are, so I see no reason to believe that switching to Blue Note is going to broaden his very narrow view of jazz. All this to say that I believe Wynton must have been signed upo for reasons other than his musical ability. He is, after all, so heavily hyped that whatever he lacks in musical value is compensated for by his name recognition. I admire Blue Note's past and I am sorry to se that Bruce is not reaching back for inspiration. Norah Jones and Wynton are musical lightweights on a jazz scene that still has heavyweights lurking in the shadows, beyond the recognition they deserve. Signing Wynton indicates that Bruce--or whoever made that decision--shares his myopia. Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine. We'll see--I don't have high hopes, for if any jazz artist has had an opportunity to strut his stuff, it has been Wynton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine. I'm with you on that one, Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 (edited) As bland as the worst of Blue Note has been, I still can't see Wynton doing anything that is remotely adventurous--not only has his music never been venturesome, [and] he has been quite vocal in putting down players who are, so I see no reason to believe that switching to Blue Note is going to broaden his very narrow view of jazz. Thank you Christiern. This (in red above) is nearly 100% of the reason why I have such a problem with Wynton, both in general, and also specifically with him being on Blue Note. I may not like his music much, but it's his agenda, his musical 'politics', and his big head about himself - that I have such a problem with. The "Smooth Jazz" guys may create music that has far less substance than Wynton (and create music that I actually like far less than Wynton's), but they don't piss me off by dissing nearly every modern jazz artist I love and hold dear. No, I'm not saying that Wynton specifically lists artist after artist, name by name, and says "they're bad, and they're bad, and they're bad, and they're even worse!!". But what he does, and has done repeatedly - in print, and in documentary after documentary, is nearly as bad, especially considering his 'holy' status in the minds of some people. (And for the record, there are a few Wynton albums that I do think are pretty good, namely "Black Codes", "J-Mood", and his recent first string quartet are all fine recordings. And I have a couple of his classical recordings as well, and they are top-drawer.) If it were just his music, I wouldn't care a bit whether he was on Blue Note or not. Hell, there's hundreds of jazz artists who I don't care a lick for, who I never even give a moment's notice. But someone as 'closed-minded' as Wynton has no business being on a relatively 'open-minded' label like Blue Note (looking back through it's entire history). Edited June 4, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 (edited) I ask what the hell is becoming of this world? WM is the leader on a Blue Note recording but Woody Shaw was somehow never worthy. Edited June 4, 2003 by Mnytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine. I'm with you on that one, Chris. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine. I'm with you on that one, Chris. Me too. I have to admit to liking that analogy as well. Count me in too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 As bland as the worst of Blue Note has been, I still can't see Wynton doing anything that is remotely adventurous Chris: You don't think that "All Rise" qualifies as at least "remotely adventurous?" Personally, "All Rise" is not my cup of tea, and you will no doubt dismiss it as the epitome of his "horrendous extended stuff." On the other hand, I don't hear much on Blue Note that is as adventurous as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine. I see above this post that several other posters like this analogy. I've got to ask: What's the "good water" being referred to? Am I reading this right? Is "good water" Everette Harp, Najee & Norah Jones or are they the "bad wine"? Considering other statements expressed in this thread, I would almost think that "bad wine" is Wynton Marsalis' unrecorded Blue Note date. However, that would imply that you would prefer Everette Harp, Najee or Norah Jones to Wynton's unrecorded Blue Note date. That can't be what I'm seeing. BTW, I happen to enjoy a very "good water" called San Pellegrino. I often order it over some "bad" as well as "very good" and even "excellent" wine. Sometimes I feel like drinking San Pellegrino and sometimes I feel like drinking wine. I am glad I have the choice. Later, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 The Russians have a saying that the worst vodka is still preferable to the best water... ...although I don't know what that has to do with Marsalis signing with Blue Note.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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