John Zorn's TZADIK Label

[Niko]

The Book of Angels albums I used to play a lot are Ipos, Stolas, Caym and Lucifer, the latter unfortunately not up on Spotify it seems... all from the earlier days of the series... I also played Paimon this morning, a Mary Halvorson quartet with a two guitar frontline, and thought it was pretty good... Andras with the Nova Express Quartet is another on my list because I like that band a lot

[Д.Д.]

9 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I got very excited about this last night. So much good music suddenly available. I don't tend to buy albums unless I've listened to them and like them already, so this is like a sudden explosion of new music for me.

Yeah, me too. I am equally excited that I can now get rid of many Tzadik CDs with clear conscience (all Zorn will go).  

[Rabshakeh]

2 minutes ago, Niko said:

The Book of Angels albums I used to play a lot are Ipos, Stolas, Caym and Lucifer, the latter unfortunately not up on Spotify it seems... all from the earlier days of the series... I also played Paimon this morning, a Mary Halvorson quartet with a two guitar frontline, and thought it was pretty good... Andras with the Nova Express Quartet is another on my list because I like that band a lot

Thanks

 

[Д.Д.]

Another one I really like is Borah Berman Trio: 

https://www.discogs.com/release/1673899-Borah-Bergman-Trio-Luminescence

It's very different to other Bergman works, all restrained and lyrical. Not credited to Zorn on Spotify, even though he actually plays on one track!    

[rostasi]

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

For anyone not familiar with Judaism, they're just a random assortment of names and technical terms.

Yes, but for those who just might be familiar,
they could very possibly be a form of Gematria
known as Albath which are used to create the
compositional structure of each piece.
There is a reason, for example,
why there are 613 Masada pieces specifically
named as references to the 613 Mitzvot.

[Rabshakeh]

24 minutes ago, rostasi said:

Yes, but for those who just might be familiar,
they could very possibly be a form of Gematria
known as Albath which are used to create the
compositional structure of each piece.
There is a reason, for example,
why there are 613 Masada pieces specificalnamed as references to the 613 Mitzvot.

I am of the view that there are 613 Masada pieces because by the end of the third book Zorn had got up to roughly 600 and decided to compose a couple more to match the traditional count of 613 mitzvot, and then to stop there. I don't think there is any real link between the Masada pieces and the mitzvot other than that. The initial book was meant to be just 100 songs, and the original Masada pieces just have rather random Hebrew and Aramaic titles, which don't have any recognisable connection to the mitzvot that I can see. So it just looks like Zorn's picked that number for convenience, at least to me. It he'd written 365 or 248 tunes (other traditional counts) he'd have picked those, presumably.

I don't see the connection to Atbash (which I think is an ancient cypher rather than a form of gematria), save that it's the sort of thing Zorn might title a song.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Niko]

Trying to take all those different references across albums together, my hunch is that Zorn's chosen role is that of the wizard/illusionist, a profession that has spent centuries improvising ad hoc over wisdoms that look ancient to the untrained eye...  personally, I am fairly relaxed and say: great, now let's hear the music... maybe it helps that I am not particularly close to any of the traditions that are being exploited here (except for those weird moments a few times every year when I morph back into a practising mathematician... but those moments feel 200% unrelated to anything JZ might possibly do, except for the attitude, maybe... and maybe attitude is everything)

Edited September 29, 2023 by Niko

[JSngry]

If attitude is everything then music is nothing. 

[Niko]

10 minutes ago, JSngry said:

If attitude is everything then music is nothing. 

Attempts at professionalization in those old professions usually go together with a downgrading of the importance of attitude... of course, attitude is not everything, music is not nothing... but once you forget about attitude, you've most likely lost the essence

[JSngry]

Conversely, if music is everything, then attitude is nothing.

True/lasting genius/art/whatever contains both in meaningful measure. And ideally in more or less equal measure. 

Balance is a bitch, but there it is anyway. 

[Niko]

yes

[rostasi]

I applaud him that he uses his genuine interests as springboards for new works whether they're singular pieces or larger concepts. I also like that he attempts to demonstrate that Jewish music isn’t just klezmer - a century and a half old form created by Ashkenazi Jews, but that you have other distinctive forms from places like Syria, Yemen, Egypt, and so on. 

Saying that, I find a kind of New York arrogance with a forced “hipness” that’s pretty off-putting to me, but I’ve dealt with him only on just a few projects and that was enough.

[Rabshakeh]

11 hours ago, Niko said:

Trying to take all those different references across albums together, my hunch is that Zorn's chosen role is that of the wizard/illusionist, a profession that has spent centuries improvising ad hoc over wisdoms that look ancient to the untrained eye...  

I think that this is a good point. 

I wonder how much more broadly this could be applied? Matthew Shipp wrote a Facebook post years ago comparing jazz to professional wrestling (he is a fan). To summarise / paraphrase, in jazz as in wrestling, everyone needs his or her gimmick (i.e. a persona), and it has to "go over" with the marks (convince the fans, with necessary suspension of disbelief). 

[Rabshakeh]

How does the Book of Angels work? Do the artists pick the tunes from the 300 second book compositions and then decide how to play them? Or does Zorn pick them and/or do the arrangements to some extent?

[Pim]

4 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

How does the Book of Angels work? Do the artists pick the tunes from the 300 second book compositions and then decide how to play them? Or does Zorn pick them and/or do the arrangements to some extent?

No idea to be honest. I like some of those: the Uri Caine, the Masada String Trio, the Erik Friedlander, the Bar Kokhba, the Mark Feldman and the Craig Taborn. 

 

For me Zorn is putting out way too many records. Its really quantity above quality. I really like some of his projects but it's pretty hard to find them as I don't feel listening to all of the stuff that he puts out.

[Rabshakeh]

6 hours ago, Pim said:

the Masada String Trio

Which one? Haborym or Azazel.

6 hours ago, Pim said:

For me Zorn is putting out way too many records. Its really quantity above quality. I really like some of his projects but it's pretty hard to find them as I don't feel listening to all of the stuff that he puts out.

Ideally the Book of Angels concept should get round that by having others do the playing. But I don't think it does. 

[Pim]

7 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Which one? Haborym or Azazel.

Ideally the Book of Angels concept should get round that by having others do the playing. But I don't think it does. 

Both but especially Azazel

[Chuck Nessa]

Checking my collection database - I have 1 Braxton, 1 George Lewis and 12 Wadadas. Guess I'm a sucker for my friends.

[BFrank]

11 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Checking my collection database - I have 1 Braxton, 1 George Lewis and 12 Wadadas. Guess I'm a sucker for my friends.

😎👍

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Checking my collection database - I have 1 Braxton, 1 George Lewis and 12 Wadadas. Guess I'm a sucker for my friends.

I would prefer a Second Book of Wadadas or Braxtons. I think both are stronger composers. Let's hear what Medeski, Martin and Woods and Pat Metheny do with that.

2 hours ago, Pim said:

Both but especially Azazel

Thanks.