Alex Hoffman: "Why I think Wayne Shorter Sucks"

[Dan Gould]

Gotta have more dick than that if you gonnawanna Fuck Wayne Shorter. Sorry.

Not quite as pithy as "Your Arms Too Short to Box With God" but I feel you.

[Larry Kart]

Sounds to me like instead of taking heroin to deaden themselves to the ongoing outside world in order to attempt to access their inner beauties & truths, they're using their music to deaden themselves to the ongoing outside world and just stopping there.

Maybe they can do a version of The Connection and take all the heroin out.

[CJ Shearn]

Hoffman fares better on that tune, but his choices are still too safe and clinical to my ears. When Herring solos out of his Cannon bag, he means it. Hoffman sounds like he's playing a homework assignment. Whereas Josh Redman got cute and "hip" on "Spirit of the Moment" for example, he plays like he means it, and the energy makes that album fun to listen to,

[skeith]

the part of the video that was left out is at the end where the guys in the white coats show up and put Mr. Hoffman in the straightjacket and take him back to the funny farm he escaped from

[fasstrack]

I don't know Larry - when I look at transcripts of Konitz and Marsh, I see them as being very interval-conscious. Which was pretty much how Tristano taught. I'm not saying the use of this is not intuitive, but I think that's only because both were able to so internalize the process.

As for Hoffman, I was sympathetic at first, but now he sounds to me like just another reactionary schmuck.

as for Sacha Perry, oi, a strange one. Some good ideas, but reminds me of the times when Joe Albany's brain cells would misfire. It was like listening to an interesting echo.

A fair amount of what Perry plays sounds to me like he's stuck inside a snippet of a solo on "Donna Lee" being played by, say, Argonne Thornton and can't find his way out.

Way more to him than that. Listen more, please.

Yes, this one below from Perry has something IMO:

but every time I've heard him in a "blowing" context FWTW (rather than as here, stating and sounding out an intense but more or less pre-determined structure) he sounds fairly well trapped to me, chewing over very similar figures and never getting much of anywhere.

And his comping? I do have a fair amount on Perry on CDs as a sideman.

Another taste of Perry:

Speaking of getting somewhere, listen to the melodic flow of Ted Brown's solo.

I know that crowd well, Ari, Sacha, Zaid Nasser, Alex, Phil Stewart, and for ages---especially Ari and Sacha (William Ash used to be a chief cohort. He plays bass now and does mostly Latin gigs but still plays guitar). They believe in what they are doing (as opposed to being full of themselves). The way they play is the only way that makes sense to them, and they've played their asses off since the early teen years--spurred on by C. Sharpe, Tommy Turrentine, Leroy Williams, Chris Anderson, Barry Harris, Frank Hewitt. All of those elders were proud.

The verbal wars? Who cares? Let it ride. I've argued-debated plently with those guys. I've also stood on bandstands often enough with Ari Roland supporting his bowed solos to know what someone in love with bringing an ideal fully out is. Sacha, the same. They live the jazz life, those guys. Heed their musical utterances and you won't go wrong.

Edited June 10, 2013 by fasstrack

[AllenLowe]

I hear ya, Joel. But Perry almost sounds like a software program. Albeit a really smart one.

Edited June 10, 2013 by AllenLowe

[robertoart]

I don't know Larry - when I look at transcripts of Konitz and Marsh, I see them as being very interval-conscious. Which was pretty much how Tristano taught. I'm not saying the use of this is not intuitive, but I think that's only because both were able to so internalize the process.

As for Hoffman, I was sympathetic at first, but now he sounds to me like just another reactionary schmuck.

as for Sacha Perry, oi, a strange one. Some good ideas, but reminds me of the times when Joe Albany's brain cells would misfire. It was like listening to an interesting echo.

A fair amount of what Perry plays sounds to me like he's stuck inside a snippet of a solo on "Donna Lee" being played by, say, Argonne Thornton and can't find his way out.

Way more to him than that. Listen more, please.

Yes, this one below from Perry has something IMO:

but every time I've heard him in a "blowing" context FWTW (rather than as here, stating and sounding out an intense but more or less pre-determined structure) he sounds fairly well trapped to me, chewing over very similar figures and never getting much of anywhere.

And his comping? I do have a fair amount on Perry on CDs as a sideman.

Another taste of Perry:

Speaking of getting somewhere, listen to the melodic flow of Ted Brown's solo.

I know that crowd well, Ari, Sacha, Zaid Nasser, Alex, Phil Stewart, and for ages---especially Ari and Sacha (William Ash used to be a chief cohort. He plays bass now and does mostly Latin gigs but still plays guitar). They believe in what they are doing (as opposed to being full of themselves). The way they play is the only way that makes sense to them, and they've played their asses off since the early teen years--spurred on by C. Sharpe, Tommy Turrentine, Leroy Williams, Chris Anderson, Barry Harris, Frank Hewitt. All of those elders were proud.

The verbal wars? Who cares? Let it ride. I've argued-debated plently with those guys. I've also stood on bandstands often enough with Ari Roland supporting his bowed solos to know what someone in love with bringing an ideal fully out is. Sacha, the same. They live the jazz life, those guys. Heed their musical utterances and you won't go wrong.

Heed there musical utterances and you won't go wrong. Well actually.... maybe in a traditional sense yes. But if you are unwilling to deal with anything post - Ornette or even Coltrane FFS into your Jazz world view then a big fat NO. Or are these guys collectively 'for' 'no changes'... if they assess it as 'motivic development' or something?

The verbal wars? Who cares?

Well the debates within the music are not going to go away, whether they are socio-cultural or Formalist....so maybe better to argue it through with some sense of consistency, especially if you are going to introduce language from other disciplines like Philosophy to help clarify your points.

Hoffman uses Phenomenologically descriptive language to argue for an Ontologically based musical process.

He sounds like he is just another person trying to accommodate, or 'get around' 'The Blues' into his musical world view.

For instance how does he describe the conscious thought processes, when/if, he uses the natural mechanics of his instrument to - honk, wail, skronk or cry? Are they just 'artifices' to maintain (or wake up ) the listeners interest while you gather together your next thought process (ie...damn...tri-tone subs - I always forget to play them ) or are they just musical 'ad hominems' to the 'real' art of Jazz - ie according to Hoffman, voice leading through changes?

BTW... the guys you mention, Turrentine, Harris, Williams etc, did they actually cultivate this kind of 'don't play without conscious science' approach in these 'disciples'. Leroy Williams was right at the forefront of 'The Shorter' generation?

The level of dialogue in some of this stuff is downright 'comical'.

"I don't want to 'physically' harm Wayne Shorter"

Sheesh......

Edited June 11, 2013 by freelancer

[robertoart]

Here is Hoffman in better company, a band led by Brian Lynch. Nonetheless, his lack of projection sound-wise suggests to me that he is playing a combination tenor saxophone/vacuum cleaner, while a fair number of his phrase endings just stop or trail away, as though the sequence of "correct" changes and substitutions he's been using as a road map has led him down a blind alley or to the edge of a cliff.

This is pretty nice playing by Hoffman (and everyone else).

It's fairly languid in a non-opiate kind of way

Nobody would kick him off the bandstand for farting.

I wonder what was going through his mind when he was playing...did he start to drift

[AllenLowe]

as for that school, I spent a lot of time with Barry Harris in the '70s; he's not the least bit like, say, Tristano. No cults, no demands for personal loyalty; however, a very ideological adherence to the tenets of bebop. I loved the man, but eventually, personally, had to get past the conformist sense that there was basically only one correct way to play. I was never as bad as Hoffman is, but I definitely had neo-conservative musical tendencies for a time. Barry is very persuasive, and so completelty sincere that it is hard to avoid the influence.

Edited June 11, 2013 by AllenLowe

[robertoart]

The Dumb Lions.

[AllenLowe]

some of them do very well professionally.

[Guy Berger]

I somehow missed the initial "controversy", but this seems to boil down to "(jealous/bitter?) idiot says something idiotic."

OK, so I got around to reading the initial post and I'd add "...with a hefty dose of pseudo-intellectual wankery."

[Big Wheel]

Well this is awkward.

[JSngry]

Not awkward at all. I for one would like to hear what the young man has to say absent the illusory privacy of Facebook, and absent an inept interviewer.

[robertoart]

Absent's makes the heart grow fonder.

[CJ Shearn]

Well, it would be nice to hear his views on other music too

[marcello]

No it wouldn't.

[bertrand]

I can't imagine he will adapt a different tone here. I suspect he just signed up to read what is being said about him, because he's that kind of egotist.

It's a bummer, because now I am hesitant to post about this informal concert series I am putting together in the DC area to celebrate Shorter's 80th birthday.

Bertrand.

Edited June 13, 2013 by bertrand

[CJ Shearn]

No it wouldn't.

LOL, ok, ok.

[Big Wheel]

I can't imagine he will adapt a different tone here. I suspect he just signed up to read what is being said about him, because he's that kind of egotist.

It's a bummer, because now I am hesitant to post about this informal concert series I am putting together in the DC area to celebrate Shorter's 80th birthday.

Bertrand.

He does not need an account to read any music-related post. The only part of the board that requires an account to view is the political forum.

[JSngry]

I know that I disagree with him about Wayne Shorter, and fundamentally so, but...so what? It's not like you have to like Wayne Shorter, or even worse, should like Wayne Shorter.That's kinda creepy. Do I have to like Bill Evans? Do I have to should like Bill Evans? If so, then I fail at life. And oh well about that.

I just think that he made the mistake of absolutizing his own beliefs and more or less turning it from "doesn't work for me" into "Wrong For Life"...and even that's not a mistake unless you're looking for reinforcement, in which case, sorry wrong world. And even then, hey, courage of conviction recognized, and all that.

But beyond that, I remain resoundingly unconvinced of any need to be convinced. Which to me is the ultimate Sad Joke - who is trying to convince who of what, and why them?

And ok, while we're in Full Fuck Afterglow...fuck Facebook. And fuck "social media" in general.

But that's just me.

[Daniel A]

FWIW, You need an account to be able to use the search function.

[JSngry]

Or Google: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q=organissimo+%22alex+hoffman%22&oq=organissimo+%22alex+hoffman%22&gs_l=hp.3...1257.5664.3.5877.15.15.0.0.0.0.166.2232.0j15.15.0...0.0...1c.1.17.psy-ab._2yY2YOVfGg&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47883778,d.eWU&fp=f759d189ca9e00c4&biw=1524&bih=749

[Big Wheel]

Right, if he has a Google alert set up for his own name or whatever, he'll get an email after Google indexes this thread. I highly doubt he just stumbled on the board by coincidence this week (he conceivably previously could have been a lurker, but I think that's unlikely also).

[AllenLowe]

hey Alex - if you are reading this:

1) You're a schmuck

2) You're completely ignorant of literary theory and practice, which parallel's jazz's need to take the next step - and which it took about 60 years ago, so time to wake up, stupid. Read Joyce, Claude Simon, Robbe Grillet, pay some attention to Gil Evans, George Russell, Paul Bley,Charles Mingus, Jaki Byard, Gil Melle, Kenyon Hopkins, Charlie Banacos, and about 50 other musicians who knew, in the 1950s, that bebop couldn't last as a viable form.