Un-American Jazz ! Bop to post-bop (and everything in between) &#3

[Simon8]

Hello all,

I'm looking for some good non-American jazz records from the 40's, 50's and 60's: Polish, Danish, Japanese, South African, whatever's worthy of hearing (I know that the Jazzhus label has some very good albums that fit the bill: I have and very much like Albert Mangelsdorff's "Tension" and Wolfgang Dauner "Dream Talk").

Thanks !

Edited October 3, 2013 by Simon8

[B. Clugston]

Krzystof Komeda's Astigmatic is a classic.

[jeffcrom]

Martial Solal! I don't know what 50's/60's records by him are now available (I have a lot on vinyl), but I've never heard anything by him that's less than excellent.

(I just looked on Amazon Canada - there's a lot there by Solal, but much of it seems kind of expensive.)

And "non-American" jazz might be a better way to word it. "Un-American" has the connotation of "anti-American."

[erwbol]

Krzystof Komeda's Astigmatic is a classic.

I'd love to hear more by that saxophonist, Zbyszek Namyslowski. Any recommendations?

[Simon8]

You're right, Jeff: it was my McCarthy joke attempt (and coming from a Canadian; worse, a Québécois).

Thanks for Solal, forgot about him. I have his arresting, 2-bass trio "Sans tambour ni trompette".

Will lend a ear to "Astigmatic", B. Culgston !

[Big Beat Steve]

"Un-American Jazz!"

Whew ... That topic title almost came across like a KKK witch hunt call! :crazy:

Now, seriously:

To answer your question, what one would have to know a little better is

Where would you want to draw a line between what you would call "pastiche of American jazzz" and what you would find acceptable for its own self?

Wonder how many American jazzmen would just have been doing "pastiches" of other (more renowned, more innovative) American jazzmen too, BTW?

Be careful not to fall into the Down Beat review rut of calling everything "derivative" that isn't wildly innovative (and then bound to drift beyond what might still be called jazz by many criteria).

Anyway ... If you want to start off in a relatively classic modern jazz vein, try Lars Gullin, and Jan Johansson from Sweden.

Jan Johansson's interweaving of jazz and Swedish folk tunes is quite fascinating and very much a class by itself.

Bengt-Arne Wallin's "Old Folklore in Swedish Modern" would fall into much the same bracket.

There are many, many more from post-war Sweden that I find could very well stand on their own but again, it depends on how far your "pastiche" idea would go and to what extent you exclusively want things to come from the "bop" side and not from the "cool" side..

From (West) Germany: Klaus Doldinger, Hans Koller, Albert Mangelsdorff, Michael Naura (just as starters). There are many more from the 70s Free Jazz scene but others wil be more qualified to tell you about "un-American" acts of note.

[Simon8]

Excellent observations, Steve. True that most of (American) jazz could be called "pastiche" of the few innovators. And I certainly cherish (and perhaps prefer) the "little masters" of the music, those that came "after" and did their non-innovative, authentic swinging thing. So I'll edit my original post !

I really like Lars Gullin (I'm all for the cool side of things as well) . Any album in particular ? Heard some very good Doldinger and Koller (album ?), don't know Naura. Thanks !

Edited October 3, 2013 by Simon8

[B. Clugston]

Krzystof Komeda's Astigmatic is a classic.

I'd love to hear more by that saxophonist, Zbyszek Namyslowski. Any recommendations?

That's the only album I've heard him on and he is indeed fabulous on it. He does have an extensive discography--would be interested to hear others' opinions.

[Big Beat Steve]

Good to see that this is settled, Simon.

To concretize my recommendations above:

I've always have had a soft spot for the Lars Gullin 2-LP reissues of his 50s work done by Metronome in the 70s and the "Fine Together" 2-LP set reissued by Sonet (featuring late 50s Gullin) but they are long OOP. For his 50s recordings I'd suggest you check out the Lars Gullin CD series reissued in more recent times on Metronome ("The Legendary Years") as well as the reissues featuring Gullin on the (Swedish) Dragon label. Am not familiar with his later recordings so you will have to wait for others to chime in.

Hans Koller: The Saba LP "Exclusiv" from the mid-60s is very nice but probalby excedingly difficult to find.

WIthin the time frame you mentioned, "Vision" on the Saba label also is a fine one, I understand (though I have no idea if and where it has been reissued).

http://www.discogs.com/Hans-Koller-Vision/release/2531599

Prime Hans Koller from the 50s is on these two CDs:

- "Some Winds" (2-CD set on the Austrian RST label, featuring recordings he did in Austria)

- "Musician Of The Year" (on the Jazz Realities label) - a reissue of his three 10-inch LPs on the legendary (German) MOD label.

And speaking of Martial Solal:

Koller's Collaboration with Solal on ths 1965 LP might also be worth a try:

http://www.discogs.com/Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal-Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal/release/1720925

Michael Naura:

His 1963 album "European Jazz Sounds" on Brunswick seems to have been reissued on CD in recent years:

http://www.discogs.com/Michael-Naura-Quintet-European-Jazz-Sounds/release/2814824

Earlier (50s) recordings by Naura were issued on various EPs but I am not sure of recent reissues and his later recordings cover different ground, style-wise.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[bogdan101]

"un-American" jazz artists whose recordings I have appreciated lately: the Piet Noordijk quartet, the Willem Breuker Kollektief, Misha Mengelberg (with or without the ICP orchestra), Franz Koglmann, Gianluigi Trovesi, the Italian Instabile Orchestra, the Ganelin trio. All of them quite post bop.

[jeffcrom]

You're right, Jeff: it was my McCarthy joke attempt (and coming from a Canadian; worse, a Québécois).

Then it was a pretty good joke - shame on me for not recoginzing it as such.

I like what I've heard by Namyslowski, too, but the only albums I have that he plays on are long-out-of-print Polish LPs by Michael Smith and the Polish Radio Jazz Orchestra. I need to get Astigmatic myself.

[Sundog]

Check out artists on the Moserobie label.

[king ubu]

Some from Poland ...

The "Polish Jazz Quartet" has been reissued as by Jan "Ptaszyn" Wroblewski, the great tenor saxophonist, too ... and the Calig LP by Stanko is phantastic too!

The first of the two Namyslowskis is the one to absolutely get ...

[.:.impossible]

The Man with the Golden Arm turned me on to some of that Polish jazz a decade ago now. Where did you go my friend?

Great music.

[Head Man]

Krzystof Komeda's Astigmatic is a classic.

I'd love to hear more by that saxophonist, Zbyszek Namyslowski. Any recommendations?

That's the only album I've heard him on and he is indeed fabulous on it. He does have an extensive discography--would be interested to hear others' opinions.

This one, from 1964, is excellent.

In fact I enjoy everything I have by him including these two from 2003 & 2006 respectively:

[GA Russell]

The first thing I heard from Klaus Doldinger was a 1968 recording released in the US on the World Pacific label with the title Blues Happening.

I go back to it every once in a while, and never fail to enjoy it.

(It's nothing like Doldinger's Passport records.)

[king ubu]

Regarding Doldinger, his early stuff is fine indeed. German Universal put out this 4CD set some years ago, seems it's OOP and expensive now, though:

I'd love to see a proper reissue of "Blues Happening", which is slightly later and very good!

Doldinger is also on this one, short buy nice tunes (and still available):

As far as Kühn goes, all his albums with brother Joachim from the sixties are good, and a few have been reissued lately, the first one on Impulse is a classic, but already OOP as well, it seems ... so is the second, which is a bit messier (and yeah, that's Karl Berger of course):

But there's also this one, from the recent batch of Amiga (GDR) reissues, which is still around:

speaking of Amiga, and since plenty of stuff with more or less clear avantgarde leanings has already been mentioned anyway, this one's effin' amazing:

Since Man with the Golden Arm has been mentioned, I must give huge props to my man couw for hooking me up with much of this stuff, some years ago!

[miles65]

From the Netherlands: Piet Noordijk Jubilee Concert

[king ubu]

And in France, there's Barney Wilen, too ...

Martial Solal has been mentioned ... there's also René Urtreger, who made some great recordings ...Henri Texier, too (the three Romano-Sclavis-Texier albums are all easily recommended), Michel Portal (of whom I don't know many official releases, but he's a great musician!), Louis Sclavis (who has made among other things a lengthy series of good ECM albums) ... Bernard Peiffer is pre-bop, but in a way that many fans of modern jazz should enjoy (and his postumous disc "Formidable" shows he went modern, too).

[uli]

how about some Swiss time keeping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOz8dAkNRMM

and a European suite from Vienna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S4sjWUURE8&list=PLjc8Jcsf6q4k8FKVrTsLcNVqw6duedlCf

[Joe]

Jan Garbarek's early ECM dates (w/ Rypdal, Arild Andersen, Bobo Stenson, Jon Christensen et al.) are much less atmospheric and more meaty (if still lean) that his later discography might suggest. You can't go wrong with AFRIC PEPPERBIRD, SART, TRIPTYKON and WITCHI-TAI-TO.

Sardinian bassist Marcello Melis recorded three LPs for Black Saint, all worth hearing: NEW VILLAGE ON THE LEFT, FREE TO DANCE, and ANGEDRAS. Alll do feature the participation of some Americans (Roswell Rudd, Don Moye, Jeanne Lee), but part of Melis' genius is his ability to integrate a diverse array of musical "material" into coherent, even somewhat conceptual, statements. I actually think the least well-known of these records -- ANGEDRAS, featuring some really intense sax playing from Sandro Satta -- is one of the best. It also features Don Pullen.

South Africa... check out Harry Miller's recordings for his own Ogun label: http://www.efi.group.shef.ac.uk/labels/ogun/ogunhm.html

Edited October 4, 2013 by Joe

[king ubu]

Yes on Melis!

Also this one:

And HELLYEAH on South Africa!

There's plenty of dedicated threads around, I'd rather have the OP look them up instead of this thread going "recommend all music from after 1960 that you like" (which is where it's been heading from the git-go ... it's all post-Coltrane music anyway ;-)).

This one's the best entry point, I guess:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=32699

But there are others ... I pulled together several links once, there might be newer threads I missed back then:

[Head Man]

Wearing my "Union Jack" hat here's a few that I couldn't live without:

..in fact, ANYTHING by Stan Tracey.....

OK I know he was born in the West Indies but he played & recorded all his jazz in the UK

[Joe]

So... I entered the 70s. Still great stuff.

Within the time-frame originally specified, there's also Joki Freund's YOGI JAZZ, Rolf Ericsson's Swedish recordings (all compiled by the good folks at Dragon Records... MILES AWAY, & THE AMERICAN STARS 1956), Italian drummer Gil Cuppini (WHAT'S NEW with Dusko Goykovich, George Gruntz and Barney Wilen is quite good), and Nick Ayoub's THE MONTREAL SCENE (OK, Canada, but its Quebec, and Ayoub is Lebanese).

[Head Man]

So... I entered the 70s. Still great stuff.

Ah so I did... Captain Adventure came out in 1975. Still, they say if you can remember the 60's then you weren't there.