A Thought Regarding Universal now owning Blue Note

[margolbe]

Now that Universal owns Blue Note and Verve, I wonder if we will begin to see some of the large box sets that are frequently issued in classical music in jazz.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

[crisp]

If there were any I would expect budget boxed-up versions of material most of us here already have, in the same masterings. Great for newbies and for filling gaps in collections, not always interesting to middle-aged hard-core collectors.

Certainly if Universal Italy got to work on Blue Note there are a few boxes they could reissue that I overlooked at the time, Herbie Nichols for one.

It's weird how several EMI (as was) Mosaics have appeared on Spotify. I wonder if there's a more flexible rights issue there that could lead to physical reissues. I'd jump on any of Andrew Hill, George Shearing and Larry Young, to name but three oop examples.

[CJ Shearn]

Same here, to grab anything I didn't have.

[7/4]

Now that Universal owns Blue Note and Verve, I wonder if we will begin to see some of the large box sets that are frequently issued in classical music in jazz.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

No.

The huge jazz box sets (Miles, Herbie Hancock) are still kinda expensive. Older OOP boxes like Mosaic should come back as bargain boxes but they don't.

[David Ayers]

Well, who knows. My guess is that the larger Mosaic boxes are mainly not by names that could sell well, and the Selects don't really fit the universal.it model - too small.

[Fer Urbina]

It's weird how several EMI (as was) Mosaics have appeared on Spotify. I wonder if there's a more flexible rights issue there that could lead to physical reissues. I'd jump on any of Andrew Hill, George Shearing and Larry Young, to name but three oop examples.

As far as I know those (including the huge Nat King Cole box) have been put there by EMI. Universal has done the same with some of "their" Mosaic boxes (1950s Basie, Gerry Mulligan CJB, The Farmer/Golson Jazztet).

Material is licensed to Mosaic for a certain number of copies. I doubt there'll be physical reissues of that material (it'd be interesting to see whether Universal Italia or other local Universal branch would be allowed to use masters previously used or especially made for Mosaic).

F

Edited April 14, 2014 by Fer Urbina

[king ubu]

Well, who knows. My guess is that the larger Mosaic boxes are mainly not by names that could sell well, and the Selects don't really fit the universal.it model - too small.

Well, they could just go further down the Universal Italy road ... there's loads of Fantasy (Prestige, Riverside, Contemporary ...) material they could bundle (loads, really ... Blue Mitchell, Jimmy Heath, Johnny Griffin, Gene Ammons, Jack McDuff, Johnny "Hammond" Smith, Don Patterson, Teddy Edwards, Shelly Manne ...) but then would that sell? When you see numbers, usually they say jazz is selling only a very small percentage of the numbers classical is, so ...

Anyway, EMI boxes they could revive (if that's all they do) aren't that many ... Herbie Hancock and Dexter Gordon (both 6CD set) come to mind. But if they want to re-package, there'd be some names I'd expect to sell somewhat easier than the ones just mentioned: Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Jimmy Smith, Freddie Hubbard ... they could also try Hank Mobley, Bobby Hutcherson and a few more, of course. And they could do a Larry Young box

[gmonahan]

A big Gene Ammons box. That would be nice.

gregmo

[jazzbo]

A big Gene Ammons box. That would be nice.

gregmo

Agreed.

[JSngry]

Yeah, Gene Ammons! If Universal Italy can do the Concord-owned ex-OJC stuff, they could do all the Mercury, Prestige, Argo/Cadet, Verve (w/Stitt), Blue Note (what little there is) and have on helluva box covering pretty much the man's entire career, beginning to end. Put me down for that one, for sure.

[king ubu]

Well, they could do lotsa bit boxes using Blue Note, ex Fantasy and other stuff ... they could even group all official Mogie albums in one place now ... not sure any of it will happen though.

While I don't mind big boxes with classical, where I tend to listen work- or artist-based, I feel the notion of albums in jazz isn't that a bad one, after all ... sure, I love chronological listening and complete sessions and stuff, but still so much of the music at debate here has been around on single discs and so many of us bought so many of 'em ... is there really much of a market? I'd not go for a Jug box even if the one or two I still miss aren't around on CD or would cost more than usual. Just makes no sense, really. And it seems the market is so much smaller (compared to classical) that "but there are so many newbies who don't have the music" is likely no point ... not sure today's newbies want cheapo box-sets anyway.

[Big Beat Steve]

I for one would go for a Jug box set if it concentrated on his recordings that originally were done as ALBUMS. I have most if not all of hits 78-rpm era recordings that have since been reissued on Mercury, Chess and Prestige but relatively little of his (numerous) Prestige albums, for example.

But basically I agree with you. To those collectors who have been aroudn a while, box sets are nice for filling gaps in one's collection in one swoop and because they rarely have very, very huge blanks in their collections of their preferred music they will invariably end up with duplications. Maybe this is one reason why there IS a market (though apparently not a sufficiently huge one) budget-priced box sets - if I have 4 or 5 out of the 8 CD's worth of music on a given box set (and if those albums are in a format I am not likely to dump just because of the box sets), would I be willing to pay big bucks for an 8-CD set of which I can use only 3 or 4 CDs? Always assuming, of course, those box sets are programmed SENSIBLY - which often isn't even the case with reissuers that would be called "legit" around here.

[A Lark Ascending]

I wish just half the energy put into creating boxed sets was put into creating some permanent online archives of this music as mp3. FLAC, studio quality downloads or whatever. Within licencing limits it could be there permanently for people to acquire when and where they wanted. Handled sensibly, it could allow people to take the bits they want or the whole package if preferred. Proper details of who is playing, notes if available. The whole limited edition thing strikes me as having as much to do with creating collectable artefacts as it is a means to acquiring desired music.

Given the advances in technology I'm sure it would be possible to produce a home-made package if the 'conspicuous display' that the box set allows is required to impress the neighbours.

Jazz will always have a much harder time than classical in this respect. Classical is recognised far more widely as a signifier of good taste, cultural aspiration etc which is why there are many more of them.

I like a good boxed set as well as anyone - one that puts together things otherwise unavailable or hard to get; and can see the appeal of those 'all major works in one place' sets to people coming new to a performer. But I can't be doing with all the brick-a-brac that many throw in to entice the completist.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeah, Gene Ammons! If Universal Italy can do the Concord-owned ex-OJC stuff, they could do all the Mercury, Prestige, Argo/Cadet, Verve (w/Stitt), Blue Note (what little there is) and have on helluva box covering pretty much the man's entire career, beginning to end. Put me down for that one, for sure.

There's nowt on BN of Jug. There's an album on PJ with Groove Holmes, which is one of Jug's (and Groove's) best. And a couple of tracks done for Aladdin. But also, some Savoy and United material, which wouldn't be caught by Universal. For albums, there's one on Chazzer (never heard it), the Bennie Green on VJ, one on Winley (which might be available to Uni via Chess or maybe not), one on Roots (put out recently by one of the Andorran labels), (part only of?) one on Sessions and one on Enja.

If Uptown were to put out a 1948 live gig of Jug's, like the Jacquet that came out last year, I'd buy three and have a select

MG

[jazzbo]

I wish just half the energy put into creating boxed sets was put into creating some permanent online archives of this music as mp3. FLAC, studio quality downloads or whatever. Within licencing limits it could be there permanently for people to acquire when and where they wanted. Handled sensibly, it could allow people to take the bits they want or the whole package if preferred. Proper details of who is playing, notes if available. The whole limited edition thing strikes me as having as much to do with creating collectable artefacts as it is a means to acquiring desired music.

Given the advances in technology I'm sure it would be possible to produce a home-made package if the 'conspicuous display' that the box set allows is required to impress the neighbours.

Jazz will always have a much harder time than classical in this respect. Classical is recognised far more widely as a signifier of good taste, cultural aspiration etc which is why there are many more of them.

I like a good boxed set as well as anyone - one that puts together things otherwise unavailable or hard to get; and can see the appeal of those 'all major works in one place' sets to people coming new to a performer. But I can't be doing with all the brick-a-brac that many throw in to entice the completist.

I can certainly see the advantages and timeliness of that proposal, though I (and probably a dying off breed of jazz fan) have no interest in downloading and wish for discs and booklets etc.

I think we're seeing these classical box sets in part because we are at the eclipse of the physical product age (imo sadly) -- this has offered a window that the labels believe they better shove stuff through now while they can. They may move in this direction with jazz. .. though I think we'll continue to only really see what we have already, such as the Columbia box sets that Pop Market markets, and the Universal Armstrong, Bechet, Holiday et al sets -- the biggest names will be trotted out again, and that will have less of an appeal to the longtime jazz fan.

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm sure there will be 'hand crafted' physical products for a long time to come. I expected the physical thing to die out much more quickly than it has. There's clearly a substantial market there.

My conservatism runs in another direction. I like to explore in bite-sized chunks. An individual album here, a specific symphony or string quartet there. Although I do buy boxes when I know there is a mass of music there I will enjoy exploring, I still prefer to go step by step. The permanently online approach works best for me in that respect - I'm less likely to gobble up everything in one go for fear it might not be there tomorrow.

[jazzbo]

I like having it all lumped together, to revel in it, dip in and out of. This has been a great three or four years for classical music exploration, and I have a great pleasure now in taking a box set over to my parents' house (where I spend all my days) and Dad and I listening through the box. . . and then bringing over another. This past year we've gone through many including Hayden sympnonies, Mozart wind and violin works, Beethoven piano sonatas, the George Szell, Murray Perahia and Jascha Heifetz box sets, and more.

This wouldn't work with jazz box sets as my parents have far less interest in jazz than I, but I still and would still buy some released by Universal from the EMI holdings.

Edited April 15, 2014 by jazzbo

[crisp]

FLAC downloads would suit me fine -- would save me the trouble of ripping and then storing the redundant boxes. But I would want to fo my own tagging: I don't trust record companies to do it right.

Jazz will always have a much harder time than classical in this respect. Classical is recognised far more widely as a signifier of good taste, cultural aspiration etc which is why there are many more of them.

This is a good point but I wonder if it applies specifically to Britain. Of course there are a lot of Brits on this forum and elsewhere who like jazz but I've always sensed that most British people actively hate it.

[king ubu]

There's nowt on BN of Jug.

Almost, but not quite

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Damn right, Ubu! I'd forgotten that session.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

This is a good point but I wonder if it applies specifically to Britain. Of course there are a lot of Brits on this forum and elsewhere who like jazz but I've always sensed that most British people actively hate it.

I'm not sure they hate it. They just don't know what it is. Diana Krall? Hugh Laurie? Acker Bilk? Jamiroquai?

Classical music is even more diverse but there are clearer signposts.

Both are used to signify sophistication - but I think jazz gets used to indicate something a bit rebellious; classical music invites you into the establishment.

Edited April 15, 2014 by A Lark Ascending

[Big Beat Steve]

I think we're seeing these classical box sets in part because we are at the eclipse of the physical product age (imo sadly) -- this has offered a window that the labels believe they better shove stuff through now while they can. They may move in this direction with jazz. .. though I think we'll continue to only really see what we have already, such as the Columbia box sets that Pop Market markets, and the Universal Armstrong, Bechet, Holiday et al sets -- the biggest names will be trotted out again, and that will have less of an appeal to the longtime jazz fan.

Agreed with you about the likely packaging methods (unfortunately ...), and I can only repeat what I said before: This is where SOME of the oh so lambasted European P.D. labels excel in the grounds they cover (box sets or not ...). How much of where they go in relatively uncharted territory would EVER be coverd by the majors?

As for box sets outside the classical world, it all depends on someone who DARES to do it and who above all has all the SAVVY to come up with REALLY sensible programming.

A bit OT (but a necessary remark as will be seen later), here is one example in the field of 50s rockabilly:

http://www.goofinrecords.com/shop/index.php?topic=50&ryhma=5&orderi=vuosi1&tuote_ID=26812

http://www.ebay.de/itm/V-A-THE-TEXAS-BOX-10-CD-BOX-with-200-PAGES-BOOK-ROCKABILLY-ROCK-N-ROLL-/251406005657

This was compiled late last year by two hardcore collectors from Europe, following numerous U.S. "field trips" to find stuff for their own collections etc. They did a self-produced run of 500 sets at a price that more or less matches that of what Bear Family, for example, would charge for their box sets, and the book that come with the set definitely can hold its own with the production quality of the Bear Family items.

As for the contents, even advanced collectors are not likely to have all THAT many of those records in other form (least of all as original 45s) because the compilers had the good sense to EXCLUDE the core of those records that would normally fall squarely into that subject matter but were/are fairly easily available on other reissues (these omitted records are mentioned in the book, though, including label shots, etc., in order to give a representative picture of those obscure labels) and therefore can be expected to already be in the collections of many of those collectors who would be the target group for this box set (of course there ARE a number of duplications and overlaps with older - sometimes OOP - reissues in that field but not excessively many). And what's in there certainly is not very often a matter of "scraping the barrel" (not more so than with some crude blues originals that you really find so odd that they become enjoyable again ) but rather lots of music worth discovering for the first time. Sound quality varies (but listening through lots of 78rpm-era music my tolerance level is fairly generous, and I know I'd love to hear lots of 40s bebop and R&B even with the fidelity of the worse ones here ).

At the festival where I got mine these sold like hotcakes (relatively speaking); wonder how long it will take until this run of 500 is sold out ...

Now tell me, you all - WHY OH WHY cannot some really KNOWLEDGEABLE jazz buff-turned-producer compile something in the same vein, filling likely collectors' gaps in a TARGETED manner in the wider field of jazz?

E.g. in the field of 40s or 50s indie label R&B or in the field of small-label bebop? And probably there would be a lot to be explored in the never-before-reissued back catalogs of many somewhat better-known jazz labels as well, particularly among their 10-in LPs, many of which never made it to 12in or to reissues? Or how a bout the entire field of "Eurojazz" up to the early 60s or so - all those vinyls that had been snapped up by Japanese collecting geeks at insane prices for years if not decades

(Take a look at ANY well-stuffed website - or discography - on those subjects and you will realize how much there is out there that is still awaiting reissue or has been relatively difficult to obtain elsewhere on other reissues)?

Is it really so that the (at first glance) oh so unsophisticated rockabillies really know THEIR audiences that much better to be able to (fairly correctly) assess the market than would be the case with even very, very advanced collectors in jazz? Or are we all so very snobbish that we choose not to look beyond relatively narrow stylistic boundaries of our preferred subgenres WITHIN jazz (which would doom such a project if a knowledgeable hardcore collector out there were ever to attempt such a task)?

Just wondering ...

Edited April 15, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Put all them Gene Ammons CDs inside a jug-shaped container and call it the Jug Jug.

Drink deeply, and stay thirsty my friends!

[Big Beat Steve]

Drink deeply, and stay thirsty my friends!

You mean, there'll never be enough Jug anyway?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Drink deeply, and stay thirsty my friends!

You mean, there'll never be enough Jug anyway?

Right.

MG