erwbol Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ Edited November 15, 2015 by erwbol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 15 hours ago, GA Russell said: CNN reported earlier that the French President declared it to be an act of war. I guess we'll know soon what response, if any, will be made. It's not an act of war, it's an act of terror. A stateless entity cannot declare war on a sovereign state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Thanks for your links and illustrations, Erwbol. Hope this will get a few of those do-gooders out there to wake up and face the realities .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Um, wake up and face what reality? That there are crazy fucks out there who wanto kill people? Pretty sure everyone understands that just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Am I just reading the papers wrongly? The accounts say there were 7 or eight terrorists, and that 7 were killed. But none of them seem to be the killers at the restaurants. Are they still on the loose? Please tell me I'm wrong. Edited November 15, 2015 by medjuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 9 hours ago, Scott Dolan said: It's not an act of war, it's an act of terror. A stateless entity cannot declare war on a sovereign state. Scott, does anyone else share your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 4 hours ago, GA Russell said: Scott, does anyone else share your view? I do, kind of -- although I would say that it's more a matter of a sovereign state not being able to declare war on a stateless entity. Sure, you can say it and can do your very best to damage/destroy that stateless entity militarily or otherwise, but if it is stateless and is not totally or close to that destroyed, it sure can't surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) This reminds me of SMERSH or SPECTRE. In regard to ISIS, they control territory. The failure of everyone to recognize them as a legitimate government should not make Hollande's statement erroneous, I think. PS - I read somewhere that military experts believe that a war is not over until one side agrees to stop fighting. Edited November 16, 2015 by GA Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal Pomea Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) It would be one thing if ISIL pulled a Pearl Harbor type attack on the French Navy, wiping them out in port. Instead the first thing they did in France was kill people attending a soccer match, a concert, eating at a restaurant. I do see a difference there between an act of war and out and out terror on the civilian population. That doesn't make it any easier to respond, I know. It must be met with counter-violence of some kind, unfortunately with terrible consequences for the civilian population in Syria where ISIL hides among and dares to call itself the state. IMO. Edited November 16, 2015 by Neal Pomea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I know what "stopping it" looks like. I might feel better about that if somebody/anybody could tell me what "stopped it" looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uli Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 This isn't political? Oops. Sorry. I'm not allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 It's topical. I don't see any posts in this thread discussing politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Ok, strategy time - going forth, should all performance venues have a policy that if some knuckleheads come in and start bustin' up the joint, to get to the light box/booth/whatever and just take the whole place dark, like, ASAP? OTOH, pandemonium enuses, bot OTOH, pandemonium already ensued, and as anybody who has had it happen to them will attest, disorientation in a totally dark room comes on pretty quickly. How these dumbasses gonna shoot what they can't see? And to sweeten the pot, maybe they shoot each other in their zealotish glee. I think we would all laugh if that happened, correct? I know I sure would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Glad to hear from brownie here! Hope all your family and friends are okay! Got to news on the way home from a concert and it was doubly disturbing - but no matter what, this kind of crime can never be completely be prevented (unless maybe in a police state). It's an easy thing to say I know, but to stop going out and live our lives would be exactly what they want us to do. I'm afraid the political turn to the right though that has already taken over some parts of Europe will get another boost by this - which is wrong, in my book, because no matter what great safety rhetoric those parties push forward, there will never be any guarantee as long as our political system grants liberty to its subjects. And I really hope that won't change more to the worse than it already has, what with constant surveillance and all that. And yeah, I share that "it's not war" point of view as well. Hoping very much that this will not be the start of something like the invasion of Iraq, which really laid the ground for IS to get started, after all (maybe the yanks could at least get all their arms back from the IS please ... next time better destroy 'em rather than have the Iraqi have 'em ... and Turkey and others stop and buy their smuggled oil, thank you!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niels Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 10 hours ago, medjuck said: Am I just reading the papers wrongly? The accounts say there were 7 or eight terrorists, and that 7 were killed. But none of them seem to be the killers at the restaurants. Are they still on the loose? Please tell me I'm wrong. From what I understand, at least one person/attacker got away and is still on the run. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/paris-attack-suspects-what-do-we-know-about-them?CMP=fb_gu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverM Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Ok also but very moved. I live in the area of the shootings and was outside in the street when it happened, did not go home that night and instead stayed at a friend's place near where I was. Lots of friends stuck in restaurants and hearing the shootings. Was out yesterday to go past the scenes of the killings and there was a panic movement, cops got very nervous and cleared the streets for a moment. It's a very sad moment. Yes Niels and medjuck, there were more accomplices, namely the car drivers. 7 were identified but then Isis mentionned 8 people in their communiqué. Two more of the dead killers were identified and lots of people interrogated consequently since last night in many french cities and Brussels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 2 hours ago, king ubu said: Got to news on the way home from a concert and it was doubly disturbing - but no matter what, this kind of crime can never be completely be prevented (unless maybe in a police state). It's an easy thing to say I know, but to stop going out and live our lives would be exactly what they want us to do. Yes this WAS disturbing. Did not get the news until the morning after - luckily, because my not quite 16-year old son went to (local) Metal rock concerts both on Friday and Saturday night. Cautioning him before he set off for Saturday night was surreal enough, but two nights?? If you realize that the band at the Bataclan venue had Metal in their band name (though apparently their style of rock was not conected to it) and you then hear that those muslim scumbags claim their attack against that venue was against a place where "hundreds of heathens feast on pornography and sin" and so on, then this really, really gets creepy. Sangrey's theory on just turning the lights off doesn't work under these circumstances either. These precivilizationist hoods just were out to open fire at ANYBODY. You can accomplish that target even in total darkness. And it definitely is no laughing matter if they happen to aim at each other by mistake after dozens of innocents have been butchered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 OliverM - I hope that you and your friends remain safe. To be in Paris now must be challenging on so many levels. I can too clearly remember London after 7/7. My thoughts are with you as are those of many others in London I'm sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverM Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Thank you for your words of solidarity mjazzg. I really hope such atrocity will never become a common experience across the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 An interesting and I think sound take:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/the-attacks-in-paris-reveal-the-strategic-limits-of-isis.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad&_r=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeith Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 My thoughts and hopes are with the French and Paris ....it is just heartbreaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 The best thing I've heard recently was the sound of the crowd exiting the football stadium on Friday singing the Marseillese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) This was also heartbreaking: http://metro.co.uk/2015/11/14/pianist-delivers-moving-rendition-of-john-lennons-imagine-at-site-of-paris-terror-attacks-5501794/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4zZeTl3PCY Edited November 16, 2015 by Cyril Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 59 minutes ago, A Lark Ascending said: The best thing I've heard recently was the sound of the crowd exiting the football stadium on Friday singing the Marseillese. reports are that at tomorrow's England-France football match the screens at Wembley will display the words to the Marseillaise to encourage the English fans to sing along. If they achieve their aim that'll be an impressive display of solidarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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