BERIGAN

Harvey Weinstein story in New Yorker...truly shocking

231 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

This entire topic/thread will provide future researchers an amazing portrait of the (primarily) US/Euro male in the early 21st century. 

And the entire history of the board will provide an amazing portrait of the sanctimoniousness of others. 

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10 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

This entire topic/thread will provide future researchers an amazing portrait of the (primarily) US/Euro male in the early 21st century. 

Perhaps. 

I had no idea there was that big of a cultural divide. Though in fairness, there are still plenty of neanderthals here in American that think the way Steve does. 

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Don't expect to provoke me any further. Your ongoing invectives tell much more about you and your ilk than you can imagine.

Over here in Central Europe the vast, vast majority of us - of both sexes - get along by simply sticking to limits not to be transgressed that are based on common sense and on a passably relaxed attitude without needing the oppressive laws that seem to be needed in your place to rein in your Neanderthals. ;)

Revisions of laws in this field as they have occurred here have primarily been spurred by the influx of real Neanderthals (comparatively speaking) in recent years who cl.aim to be entitled to holding up views of women that Europe has all in all overcome in about 1918 - but there we are treacherously close to getting political so that's all on that.

Off now for a concert 'cross the border in France (where gallantry without getting obnoxious is an art in everyday inter-gender communication that has not been lost yet either - I think my lady companion will appreciate it :g)

 

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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Ah, now it's nonexistent "oppressive laws". 

One can only wonder how much more clueless goal post shifting you are capable of. 

I'm actually interested to see what you dream up next. And here I thought your extremely silly and completely wrong "nothing so much as a single word on a personal level" was your detonation point. But now you double down with these fantasy "oppressive laws". 

You are truly out there, brother. 

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3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

you and your ilk

Scott, you have an ilk, it appears.

Where do y'all do your ilkings?

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At strip clubs. Duh! 

Or as Steve would call them, "gentlemen's" clubs. 

Edited by Scott Dolan

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7 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Don't expect to provoke me any further. Your ongoing invectives tell much more about you and your ilk than you can imagine.

Over here in Central Europe the vast, vast majority of us - of both sexes - get along by simply sticking to limits not to be transgressed that are based on common sense and on a passably relaxed attitude without needing the oppressive laws that seem to be needed in your place to rein in your Neanderthals. ;)

Revisions of laws in this field as they have occurred here have primarily been spurred by the influx of real Neanderthals (comparatively speaking) in recent years who cl.aim to be entitled to holding up views of women that Europe has all in all overcome in about 1918 - but there we are treacherously close to getting political so that's all on that.

Off now for a concert 'cross the border in France (where gallantry without getting obnoxious is an art in everyday inter-gender communication that has not been lost yet either - I think my lady companion will appreciate it :g)

 

My dear Steve, I wouldn't lecture too much about Central Europe if I were you. When did Switzerland get universal suffrage again? 1971. And that's federal only. You know when the last canton allowed women to vote in local elections? 1991. Wow. So progressive! No wonder everyone gets along so well! If the women just do as they're told and shut up then there's no cause for strife or concern, right?

As for your "influx of real Neanderthals...in recent years"...I'm sure the AfD is pleased to have such a staunch supporter as you. Have you considered moving to the US? The current president has ideas you'd really like.

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I'm not sure I should post in this thread, but it makes an uncomfortable read. Here in Sweden we've already had our first local "Weinstein" thanks to the #metoo campaign. It's all too familiar; a popular television program host has for years been molesting women that have in one way or another been dependent on him. Network executives (both men and women) knew, but it was all kept quiet because he was "worth too much".

It's terrible when innocent people are accused and convicted (in court or "just" in the eye of the public) for crimes they didn't commit, be it sexual related or otherwise. But women have had to endure so much oppressive behaviour and sexual harassment from men for so long that something needs to change, radically. And if men are feeling uncomfortable by this "movement" it's nothing compared to how many times women have had to feel (rightly) uncomfortable because of a man in the room.

Regarding cross-gender relations in a work environment, it's perfectly possible to have a great professional *and* personal relation with a colleague without bringing looks into the picture. I have fun at work almost every day, and I don't feel puritanical at all.

As for holding up a door for someone, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If the person behind me is lecturing me about it I would assume that he/she is having a bad day or possibly other problems in life.

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20 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Don't expect to provoke me any further. Your ongoing invectives tell much more about you and your ilk than you can imagine

 

Way to go.  You successfully dodged the question.

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18 hours ago, lipi said:

As for your "influx of real Neanderthals...in recent years"...I'm sure the AfD is pleased to have such a staunch supporter as you.

Not expecting you anymore by now to grasp what forms actual sexual assault also takes today and what underlying attitude towards women this portrays, but just for one piece of information out there anyway ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

And even if at other occasions such "reports" were made up (which does dealing with this problem a huge disservice and deserves criminal action too)  then those incidents that actually did take place are cause for real concern as they add a totally new dimension to the existing problem of actual sexual harassment and those who've heard from women affected by this do not take this lightly. Particularly since in other everyday situations beyond those festivity days these have become a recurrent phenomenon in too many places. Or maybe you would want to tell the relatives of those women raped and murdered by asylum seekers (trials of the two most recently solved cases are currently going on.here) that this is all just right-wing propaganda? Or would you claim that because some such reports have been made up all the incidents that did take place are just not to be believed either? Blame it on the victims? I'd sure like to hear the outrage if this attitude had prevailed in the Weinstein case etc.
Blunt, unfounded allegations like YOURS (remember it wasn't me who brought up the term "Neanderthal") are the ones that are reponsible for women not speaking up in cases like this - like the eventually mediatized case of that volunteer girl helping out at a refugee housing facility who was raped by a refugee and did not dare to speak up for weeks for feelings of guilt because she was afraid this would detract from public support for refugee matters and only fuel right-wing propaganda. P.C. at its worst.

And yet I would of course NOT claim that all of those coming from Arab countries are like that (nor would any other reasonable persons in this debate), contrary to the "all men are rapists" attitude advanced elsewhere (slyly worded to be able to retreat to an "oh, but I only meant that all men are potential rapists" but not changing a thing about the underlying insinuations).

So don't talk nonsense if you don't even have the slightest clue at all of what you are talking about.

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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6 hours ago, Jazzmoose said:

Way to go.  You successfully dodged the question.

He's spent this entire conversation dismissing anything that doesn't dovetail with his mid 20th century mindset. That may be even more galling than his penchant for simply making shit up to prove a point. The most recent case in the post above where he accuses someone of saying something, while in the next sentence says that they really didn't say it, but...you know. ;) 

So I'm stepping aside. The rest of you are shredding him nicely. 

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19 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Not expecting you anymore by now to grasp what forms actual sexual assault also takes today and what underlying attitude towards women this portrays, but just for one piece of information out there anyway ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

And even if at other occasions such "reports" were made up (which does dealing with this problem a huge disservice and deserves criminal action too)  then those incidents that actually did take place are cause for real concern as they add a totally new dimension to the existing problem of actual sexual harassment and those who've heard from women affected by this do not take this lightly. Particularly since in other everyday situations beyond those festivity days these have become a recurrent phenomenon in too many places. Or maybe you would want to tell the relatives of those women raped and murdered by asylum seekers (trials of the two most recently solved cases are currently going on.here) that this is all just right-wing propaganda? Or would you claim that because some such reports have been made up all the incidents that did take place are just not to be believed either? Blame it on the victims? I'd sure like to hear the outrage if this attitude had prevailed in the Weinstein case etc.
Blunt, unfounded allegations like YOURS (remember it wasn't me who brought up the term "Neanderthal") are the ones that are reponsible for women not speaking up in cases like this - like the eventually mediatized case of that volunteer girl helping out at a refugee housing facility who was raped by a refugee and did not dare to speak up for weeks for feelings of guilt because she was afraid this would detract from public support for refugee matters and only fuel right-wing propaganda. P.C. at its worst.

And yet I would of course NOT claim that all of those coming from Arab countries are like that (nor would any other reasonable persons in this debate), contrary to the "all men are rapists" attitude advanced elsewhere (slyly worded to be able to retreat to an "oh, but I only meant that all men are potential rapists" but not changing a thing about the underlying insinuations).

So don't talk nonsense if you don't even have the slightest clue at all of what you are talking about.

Ah, so if I do have a clue what I'm talking about, am I allowed to talk nonsense? You certainly seem to give yourself that leeway.

This post is so far off the alt-right edge of crazy that I have a really hard time replying politely. It reminds me of arguments we had in sixth grade. What on earth are these "blunt, unfounded allegations" I allegedly made? That you agree with Trump? That you probably like the AfD? Given everything you've written, you seem like you do. If you don't you could simply politely say "actually, I think Trump is scum, and the AfD severely misguided and apparently hopelessly unaware of Germany's political history".

Meanwhile, the thread has drifted again. It seems to have become a Steve-vs-the-World sort of thing. Let's try to bring it back where it was.

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Thanks Daniel A! It does happen in Europe like it does in the States too I think it is a good thing that men in particular are speaking up against certain behaviour of other men towards women. That does help a lot. Of course women themselves need to too.

Edited by page

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On 10/19/2017 at 2:27 PM, lipi said:

I disagree that telling a person who might be a personal friend is the same as "getting the word out". The original point still stands: it's hard to talk about sexual abuse in general, and there's tremendous pressure not to. The whole "well, look at all these women suddenly talking, why didn't they talk before?" question is naive and, frankly, offensive.

Catesta replied to a post in which page, I believe, was trying to say just this: "it's hard to talk about being sexual abused, and many people choose not to". Responding with "but Paltrow told this one guy and he said something about it to the perpetrator" doesn't negate that point. It merely shows the profound lack of understanding and empathy surrounding the issue.

Apologies if I come across as harsh in this thread. It truly is rather upsetting to me to see some of the arguments people are making here. (And for the record, I despise Paltrow. I think she's an idiot who endangers women's health with her silly workshops and "Goop" line of products and her jade eggs and whatever else. And I am not making an argument about whether she spoke up or not, or about whether she was abused or not. This is about the lack of empathy displayed here for victims, or potential victims, of sexual abuse and the trials and tribulations they face.)

Rant over. On a different note: jazz is great. I'm listening to some right now and it makes life better. (Right now Ella, 1938 recordings with Webb's orchestra. Great stuff.)

You're correct on the part of me replying to Page and "it's hard to talk about.." and my point was, for Paltrow she didn't seem to seem to have a problem talking about it, at least not to Brad Pitt, if all that is true. My main point though, is that she could have actually spoken up and out loud and perhaps drawn attention to the scum bag and protected the women subjected to far worse after her. Instead she went on to star in many movies affiliated with Weinstein. 

This isn't lack of empathy or understanding. It's me saying Paltrow looked the other way, like many other actors, directors, producers, writers, production assistants and politicians did. Hell, it certainly seems that some even helped cover tracks. His actions were obviously no secret and that is what I find offensive.

 

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18 hours ago, catesta said:

You're correct on the part of me replying to Page and "it's hard to talk about.." and my point was, for Paltrow she didn't seem to seem to have a problem talking about it, at least not to Brad Pitt, if all that is true. My main point though, is that she could have actually spoken up and out loud and perhaps drawn attention to the scum bag and protected the women subjected to far worse after her. Instead she went on to star in many movies affiliated with Weinstein. 

This isn't lack of empathy or understanding. It's me saying Paltrow looked the other way, like many other actors, directors, producers, writers, production assistants and politicians did. Hell, it certainly seems that some even helped cover tracks. His actions were obviously no secret and that is what I find offensive.

 

I think you're missing a subtlety here: Paltrow was harassed by Weinstein. Had she been an onlooker and seen someone else harassed by him, I'd agree with your "[she] looked the other way" reading, but she was not an onlooker, she was a victim. And what we've been trying to say is that it is incredibly difficult for victims to speak up (and again, speaking to one close friend or acquaintance is a million times easier than speaking to the police, or the public at large).

Would it have been better in the long run for everybody if she had spoken up? Yes, probably--I agree with you on that. Can I blame her for not speaking up? No, because I don't know how awful the situation felt for her--I think that's where we are (perhaps) disagreeing.

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https://www.axios.com/sexual-harassment--revolution-media-hollywood-2501754043.html?utm_medium=linkshare&utm_campaign=organic

 

Quote

It was just three weeks ago that the N.Y. Times punctured film mogul Harvey Weinstein after decades of creepy sexual harassment and assault, usually targeting aspiring, vulnerable young women in the industry — the open secret that had long been hinted at but never properly exposed.

Past culture-rattling revolutions took decades to come to fruition. This one, befitting an era when everything is sped up, took days:

  • A cascade of women have come forward to tell their stories — more than 50, in the case of Weinstein (most on the record), and 200-plus in the case of filmmaker James Toback.
  • Investigations of harassment in state capitols are just beginning: AP reports that "hundreds of lawmakers, lobbyists and consultants [are] coming forward to say the problem is pervasive."
  • Overnight, CNN's Oliver Darcy reported: "Veteran journalist Mark Halperin sexually harassed women while he was in a powerful position at ABC News, according to five women."
  • Halperin, now an NBC political analyst, told CNN: "During this period, I did pursue relationships with women that I worked with, including some junior to me ... I now understand from these accounts that my behavior was inappropriate and caused others pain. For that, I am deeply sorry and I apologize. ... I'm going to take a step back from my day-to-day work while I properly deal with this situation."

Among others accused post-Weinstein:

  • Roy Price resigned as head of Amazon Studios.
  • Lockhart Steele was fired as editorial director of Vox Media.
  • Ben Affleck apologized for groping an actress.
  • Leon Wieseltier, former New Republic editor, apologizes for "offenses against some of my colleagues in the past."
  • Chris Savino, "The Loud House" showrunner, fired from Nickelodeon.
  • John Besh, high-profile New Orleans chef, steps down from company he founded..

Why it matters: Harvey Weinstein will go down as an historic figure, just not for the reasons he assumed. His outing as a sexist, dangerous pig triggered an uprising rarely seen: Abused women feel liberated to bring down powerful men in government, media, tech, politics, business and pop culture. It's spreading by the day.

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It sounds honest, but who knows?

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/27/media/mark-halperin-new-accusations/index.html

Mark Halperin's full Friday evening statement:

I am profoundly sorry for the pain and anguish I have caused by my past actions. I apologize sincerely to the women I mistreated.

The world is now publicly acknowledging what so many women have long known: Men harm women in the workplace. That new awareness is, of course, a positive development. For a long time at ABC News, I was part of the problem. I acknowledge that, and I deeply regret it. As I said earlier in the week, my behavior was wrong. It caused fear and anxiety for women who were only seeking to do their jobs.

In recent days I have closely read the accounts of women with whom I worked at ABC News. I have not read these accounts looking for discrepancies or inconsistencies. Instead, in almost every case, I have recognized conduct for which I feel profound guilt and responsibility, some involving junior ABC News personnel and women just starting out in the news business.

Many of the accounts conveyed by journalists working on stories about me or that I have read after publication have not been particularly detailed (and many were anonymous) making it difficult for me to address certain specifics. But make no mistake: I fully acknowledge and apologize for conduct that was often aggressive and crude.

Towards the end of my time at ABC News, I recognized I had a problem. No one had sued me, no one had filed a human resources complaint against me, no colleague had confronted me. But I didn't need a call from HR to know that I was a selfish, immature person, who was behaving in a manner that had to stop.

For several years around my departure from ABC News, I had weekly counseling sessions to work on understanding the personal issues and attitudes that caused me to behave in such an inappropriate manner.

Those who have worked with me in the past decade know that my conduct in subsequent jobs at TIME, Bloomberg, NBC News, and Showtime has not been what it was at ABC. I did not engage in improper behavior with colleagues or subordinates. If you spoke to my co-workers in those four places (men and women alike), I am confident you would find that I had a very different reputation than I had at ABC News because I conducted myself in a very different manner.

Some of the allegations that have been made against me are not true. But I realize that is a small point in the scheme of things. Again, I bear responsibility for my outrageous conduct at ABC News.

I hope that not only will women going forward be more confident in speaking up, but also that we as an industry and society can create an atmosphere that no longer tolerates this kind of behavior.

I know I can never do enough to make up for the harm I caused. I will be spending time with my family and friends, as I work to make amends and contributions both large and small.

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Andy Dick, living up to his name....

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/rambling-reporter/andy-dick-fired-movie-sexual-harassment-claims-1053162

On 10/25/2017 at 3:06 AM, lipi said:

I think you're missing a subtlety here: Paltrow was harassed by Weinstein. Had she been an onlooker and seen someone else harassed by him, I'd agree with your "[she] looked the other way" reading, but she was not an onlooker, she was a victim. And what we've been trying to say is that it is incredibly difficult for victims to speak up (and again, speaking to one close friend or acquaintance is a million times easier than speaking to the police, or the public at large).

Would it have been better in the long run for everybody if she had spoken up? Yes, probably--I agree with you on that. Can I blame her for not speaking up? No, because I don't know how awful the situation felt for her--I think that's where we are (perhaps) disagreeing.

But, Gwyneth  was not a typical victim. . She was not an office worker , with 3 kids, barely making ends meet....Gwyneth and her then boyfriend could have ended Harvey's rein of terror, if they had come forward 2 decades ago. I'm sure they heard of other stories even back then. and even if they couldn't convince others to come forward publicly, I am sure there would have been stories told with actresses talking to magazines, etc.

She and Brad Pitt put their careers first. and Hundreds of women were victimized because of their selflessness.

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