How “Baby It’s Cold Outside” May Be Out in the Cold

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Dan Gould said:

There is a marketplace element here but I would direct Jim to my post of the Funny or Die video, where the actress breaks character at the end  ".... to remind you that this song is completely inappropriate."

That is mind-fucking. That's a clear as day statement that you can't enjoy this tune and, as I am sure Lipi would say, be on the right side of history.  Just because the bitch can't enforce her standards doesn't mean its not royally fucked up.

 

If it is mind-fucking, it's free market mind-fucking, no different than a car commercial. Only this time the product is a thought. And it's most assuredly not being produced by the state.

Free people have ideas, free people speak, and no, nobody has a right to be protected from those expressions. They are, however, free to ignore them and to accept the personal responsibility of walking away from things they don't care to hear.

And you and I are both free to continue enjoying the song while at the same time freely acknowledging that through, hopefully, no fault of our own individually, some people can't.

And then get over it, even if others can't. C'est la vie libre.

 

5 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Well, there is a grey area between craft and art.  If we agree that jazz is art - and I assume that most of us here do - then many, many artists over the years have found enough in that body of "craft" to continually interpret and explore.

I will agree that some jazz is art. Some, not all, probably very little when you consider all the jazz played over time over the world. Very little.

That's not a problem for me, though. Just as I can enjoy crap, I can enjoy craft and not feel the need to justify it as anything else, including, especially including, "art".

My issue is with using this song as a starting point for a feared attack on "art" in general. I mean, really, it's a song that makes some people uncomfortable for what are fairly simple and legitimate reasons and they speak out. All of a sudden, the government takes over and bans  Wagner. Freedom destroyed!

It's a pop song, it's clever, and yes, "hey what's in this drink" is certainly not going to mean the same thing to all people. Chillax on the paranoia and let this work itself out.

[porcy62]

There is an interesting article on WSJ about the issue: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-jihad-against-baby-its-cold-outside-11545090565

Sorry I couldn't post the whole article

Edited December 19, 2018 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

11 minutes ago, JSngry said:

My issue is with using this song as a starting point for a feared attack on "art" in general. I mean, really, it's a song that makes some people uncomfortable for what are fairly simple and legitimate reasons and they speak out. All of a sudden, the government takes over and bans  Wagner. Freedom destroyed!

It's a pop song, it's clever, and yes, "hey what's in this drink" is certainly not going to mean the same thing to all people. Chillax on the paranoia and let this work itself out.

The debate over this song is part of a broader conversation over what is acceptable in art and entertainment, and there are indeed people advocating for "banning" the song.  (I can provide links if helpful.)

1 minute ago, porcy62 said:

There is an interesting article on WSJ about the issue: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-jihad-against-baby-its-cold-outside-11545090565

Good to hear from you, Porcy!

[porcy62]

Thanks TTK, I am glad you're still around!

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The debate over this song is part of a broader conversation over what is acceptable in art and entertainment, and there are indeed people advocating for "banning" the song.  (I can provide links if helpful.)

Good for them. Crazy people have a right to advocate for an idea just as much as anybody. They're free people too. And I have the right to resist. I'm free to. But the debate occurs because we are all free people, and free people seldom live a life free of friction.

In the meantime, I can still listen to this song and Wagner, correct? Playing simultaneously if desired, right?

Oh wow, the index is telling me that this thread is HOT!

So don't worry, all the ice and snow will soon melt and the song will go away, just like Frosty (the snowman, not the root beer).

[mjzee]

Seems like there are a lot of unenlightened people out there; maybe they'll be swept away in the dustbin of history:

Dean Martin’s classic Christmas song “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” has reached the top 10 digital sales chart for the first time ever, despite recent controversy over whether the lyrics promote sexual harassment.

According to Billboard, sales of Martin’s versions of song were up 70 percent to 11,000 downloads in the week ending December 13th, while versions by Michael Bublé and Idina Menzel, as well as Brett Eldredge and Meghan Trainor, have both reached the holiday 100 with a sharp increase in sales.

As well as the rise in downloads, online streams of Martin’s version have also surged by 35 percent to 11.1 million in the past week.

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2018/12/19/dean-martins-baby-its-cold-outside-hits-top-10-chart/

[Scott Dolan]

And that is how voting with your wallet works.  

[JSngry]

16 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

And that is how voting with your wallet works.  

Exactly! Let the marketplace of ideas work the same as any other marketplace.

And also note that the people who have a personal version have less need for a public version. At some point, the possibility of a win-win becomes plausible.

I do find it interesting, though, that of all the versions available, it's Dean Martin that the desiring public is turning to. I still think that Ray Charles/Betty Carter rule this song. Nothing against Dean, but other than "Memories are Made Of This", "Everybody Loves Somebody Sometimes", and "Houston", his are my go-to versions for nothing. As for "That's Amore", I'll pass on anybody's version!

[mjzee]

Personally, I'm triggered whenever I hear Ornette Coleman's music, and I think all of it should be banned.

[duaneiac]

12 hours ago, lipi said:

Oy. Slippery slope AND appeal to extremes. Are we turning this thread into a teaching exercise for every single logical fallacy? What you appear to imply is that considering not playing one song means we soon won't be playing any songs. That's ludicrous to the extent that it's not even a helpful rhetorical device.

But since we're dealing in extremes, I'll ask: how would you feel about a song celebrating slavery? What about one celebrating pedophiles? One calling for genocide? There's a difference of opinion on where to draw the line, but there *is* a line.

(Agree completely on the first paragraph, though. Normalizing coercion and date rape is a serious problem, and songs like this—innocent as they may be or may have been intended to be—further that problem. It's not so much saving sexual assault victims pain, it's about saving sexual assault victims from being assaulted in the first place.)

Sorry.  Basically I was jus' goin' fer sum ol' time sarcasm there.  Didn't mean to be tossin' out no logical fallacies.

What I would imply is that succeeding in banning this song, in whatever capacity, will only embolden other groups with an agenda of their own to launch future campaigns to ban music/art/books/movies they are offended by.  There are people out there for whom "being offended" is their main social activity and the world of social media gives them both much to be offended about and a platform on which they can vent about how offended they are.

Some one had mentioned Blazing Saddles a few pages back and how it could not get made in today's environment.  I watched it again last month for the first time in maybe 6 years and it is still LOL funny.  But I agree -- no way in hell could that movie get made today.  No major studio or producer would be willing to bankroll it.  If just a few select pages of that script were leaked to the press, with all those white characters so liberally (if you'll pardon the expression) using the N-word, it would stir up such an instant media-friendly controversy.  And then the production company is just left trying to play defense about the movie and that's never a good position to be in so they would just drop the whole project.  No way it could get made today.  At all.  And this would be a sadder world indeed if Blazing Saddles had never been made.

Oh and there are songs about slavery, a pedophile and  promoting genocide that I really do totally love.  They were all written by Randy Newman.  They are called "Sail Away", "In Germany Before The War", and "Political Science".  I'm guessing there have been some people offended by each of those songs, people who then tried to ban each of them just as there were people who wanted to ban "Short People" (the song, not the actual people, who are fine IMO -- well, most of 'em) back the in the 1970's.

I think what I have a big problem with this is your apparent contention that "songs like this—innocent as they may be" can still be tried, convicted and sentenced to Siberia (where Baby, it is, well you know . . . ) even though they may be perfectly totally innocent.  Just the perception of being "guilty" in some listeners' minds is enough to damn the song to permanent solitary confinement.  That just does not sit well with me at all.

[mjzee]

Well said, duaneiac.

[Scott Dolan]

28 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Well said, duaneiac.

I'll second that. 

Banning art, crap, craft, whatever we've decided this to be is a potentially slippery slope I simply do not care to step onto. 

Consider this: if we get to the point of subjective interpretation of an artists lyrics, THEN assign those judgements written in stone in order to ban the song, what's to stop the next group that says, "hey, you know that Miles Davis cat was really abusive to women, so we should remove his music and legacy from the face of the planet in order to guard the feelings of all those women out there that have been abused!" 

Sorry, gents. Not opening THAT door. 

[Teasing the Korean]

14 hours ago, lipi said:

But since we're dealing in extremes, I'll ask: how would you feel about a song celebrating slavery? What about one celebrating pedophiles? One calling for genocide? There's a difference of opinion on where to draw the line, but there *is* a line.

Pedophiles?  "Vehicle" by Ides of March, "I Saw Her Standing There" by the Beatles, and "Only 16" by Sam Cooke.

How do feel about songs glorifying murder, something we all disapprove of?  There must be hundreds of those. Thousands?  Marty Robbins's entire Gunfigher Ballads album, for starters.  "Thin Line Between Love and Hate" by the Persuaders, "Tom Dooley" by the Kingston Trio, "Folsom Prison" by Johnny Cash, "Baby Let's Play House" by Elvis (Presley), "Run for Your Life" by the Beatles.  Etc. Etc. Etc. 

And back to "Baby It's Cold Outside," where exactly does the crime occur?

Edited December 19, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[ghost of miles]

The idea of banning the song is pretty ludicrous--I haven't followed this thread for the past couple of days much, but if people in the wide world outside of Organissimo are advocating that, well, there are more immediate and more significant issues in the realm of date rape and sexual assault, IMO.  But if by "banned" you mean a program director saying "We're not gonna play this song on this station," no, I don't have a problem with that.  I haven't chosen to do that at my station for a variety of reasons, the most important being that I have great faith in the judgment of my two on-air colleagues who spin music.  Still, if it's a free country, I'm free not to play it.  I think it is indeed a creepy song heard in today's context, and like certain 1920s/30s/40s songs that traverse issues of race in an offensive or stereotyping manner, not something I care to play on a radio-broadcast program.  

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And back to "Baby It's Cold Outside," where exactly does the crime occur?

Where there's something in that drink that shouldn't be for purposes that are illegal.

Of course, "we" know that's not what it's about, but not everybody does, or will.

I'm not down with "banning" anything. But what is being banned here , exactly? Nothing that I can tell. Stations are responding to the current environment, they are exercising their prerogative, and here come people talking about jihad and 1984 and all this stupid shit that they are afraid of. I'm not saying that there aren't groups working for that, but it's a huge step from here to there, people a long way to go. When a "prominent political figure" wonders if tweaking him on SNL should even be legal or not, hey, good luck on that.

Slippery slope my ass. I've heard that about integration, voting rights, women voting (yes, even long after it was made legal", just all sorts of shit that people are afraid of, not because of logic, but because of simple internal fear/paranoia. There's this fear that "progress" is going to render "me" obsolete (and if I have nothing to offer other than being a placeholder for something there's no longer a place for, then I will be made obsolete, that's not a threat, though, that's a fact). But I'll posit that a reactionary push-back against organic progress is dangerous, because sanity leaves the room. Just as it does when another group of lunatics insist that their way must be the only way.

When people talk, let them talk. An ask is not a demand, and a demand is under no obligation to be met. But let them talk, no matter what they say.

[Teasing the Korean]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Where there's something in that drink that shouldn't be for purposes that are illegal.

Of course, "we" know that's not what it's about, but not everybody does, or will.

And therein lies the problem.  People who drink Pabst Blue Ribbon do not understand cocktail culture.  

And if any of those people invited me over for drinks, I would be as disappointed by their drink choices as I would by their record collections. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, duaneiac said:

Oh and there are songs about slavery, a pedophile and  promoting genocide that I really do totally love.  They were all written by Randy Newman.  They are called "Sail Away", "In Germany Before The War", and "Political Science".  I'm guessing there have been some people offended by each of those songs, people who then tried to ban each of them just as there were people who wanted to ban "Short People" (the song, not the actual people, who are fine IMO -- well, most of 'em) back the in the 1970's.

Ok, but - do those songs get played on the radio regularly and any without context being offered? Of course not, and you know why they don't - because as Orson Welles proved with "War Of The Worlds", people just don't pay attention much, and don't really process the out-of-the-ordinary" particularly well, they just go with their gut and shut off their brain.

If "Sail Away" was on regular rotation on an oldies station, would that really be ok? If you know it's a Randy Newman song, you know what it means. But if you're some typical low-information listener, what are you going to think, and in return, what are you going to think about people who are getting riled up about it?

"Baby It's Cold Outside" as we know it is fine. But not everybody knows it that way now. I'll put it this way - if my 13 year old daughter (she's a lot older than that now, but she was 13 once) was getting hit on by all kinds of creeps, and the song came on the radio, I would not feel good about her listening to that, and would dare not tell her to just ignore it, it's all in good fun if she asked do we have to listen to that. And if we were riding around in the car with her and her boyfriend of questionable character of a "boy friend" both in the backseat in the dark, I'm changing the station. Because that's a dad move, and I am The Dad. It's not complicated.

And neither is this, really. Nothing has been "banned", nothing WILL be banned as long as this remain America and not "America". If you want it, you can still get it.

 

3 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And therein lies the problem.  People who drink Pabst Blue Ribbon do not understand cocktail culture.  

And if any of those people invited me over for drinks, I would be as disappointed by their drink choices as I would by their record collections. 

So would you try to educate them about the necessity of Martini & Rossi being in the forefront of their consciousness, decline the invitation altogether, or act like everything;'s ok when you know it's not? Pick one, because those are about all the legal options you have.

Of course, you could put something in their drink without telling them about it, but that's not a legit move at all, correct?

[Teasing the Korean]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

So would you try to educate them about the necessity of Martini & Rossi being in the forefront of their consciousness, decline the invitation altogether, or act like everything;'s ok when you know it's not? Pick one, because those are about all the legal options you have.

Of course, you could put something in their drink without telling them about it, but that's not a legit move at all, correct?

If they served Martini and Rossi, they may be Burt Bacharach fans, so at least they may play good music, and I could always sneak in a flask.

As for legal or illegal options, a guest may be tempted to shoot them, because Marty Robbins glorified murder on his Gunfighter Ballads album.  That album's no longer available, right?  

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

As for legal or illegal options, a guest may be tempted to kill them, because Marty Robbins glorified murder on his Gunfighter Ballads album.  That album's no longer available, right? 

Of course it is (and with bonus tracks, no less!): https://www.amazon.com/Gunfighter-Ballads-Trail-Songs-Robbins/dp/B0000296J9/ref=pd_sbs_15_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0000296J9&pd_rd_r=0fcc3b43-03d9-11e9-8b23-7f522031bab0&pd_rd_w=xxNjN&pd_rd_wg=Blovw&pf_rd_p=7d5d9c3c-5e01-44ac-97fd-261afd40b865&pf_rd_r=BMM8GVBTP0AM64TTQ1G8&psc=1&refRID=BMM8GVBTP0AM64TTQ1G8

Slippery slope, my ass. Let's do fact-based reality instead.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Slippery slope, my ass. Let's do fact-based reality instead.

I never said anything about a slippery slope. 

Maybe the multi-quote feature is not working. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

And speaking of facts and such, somebody explain to me why all the "winter" and "snow" songs only get played at Christmas time. "Baby It's Cold Outside" is no more a "Christmas song" than is "Jingle Bells", "Winter Wonderland", "Sleigh Ride", the list goes on.

Of course, if current climate trends continue, in a generation or two, the whole issue may be moot. They'll either be played year-round as nostalgia or else lost forever becasue they don't make sense at all.

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I never said anything about a slippery slope. 

No, you haven't but the thread has. Threads are people too, you know.

[Teasing the Korean]

We need to write an additional stanza, in the form of a duet between the male character and his lawyer.  

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:

 "hey, you know that Miles Davis cat was really abusive to women, so we should remove his music and legacy from the face of the planet in order to guard the feelings of all those women out there that have been abused!" 

Sorry, gents. Not opening THAT door. 

oh,, that door got opened a looooong time ago. Nobody's really walked all the way through it yet, but the door has been open for a good while now.

It got opened with Billie Holiday, too, we should not engage with Billie Holiday because she accepted and encouraged her victimhood.

Sane people feel the draft from that open door, and do what sane people usually do - just move a foot or so away and that takes care of that. And fortunately, most people are sane like that and don't go doing stupid shit like being angry that some people point out that Miles certainly was was a pretty bad actor towards any number of women, because that should be pointed out in the interest of truth. Same thing with Billie, it's not cool to glorify her victimhood. But obviously there's more facts than just those, ther's a lot of facts, many of them cotradictory, but the truth of humanity is usually full of contradictory facts. Facts should not be an enemy of truth (or is that another one of those quaint 20th Century analog assumptions?). And truthfully, the line between a draft and fresh air in a stuffy room is in the eye of each individual's  thermostat.

But you don't let one stupidity take over in response to another one. You stay sane. Or not. But if you don't, you're only adding to the momentum of the overall insanity.

7 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

We need to write an additional stanza, in the form of a duet between the male character and his lawyer.  

That might actually work, depending on who the lawyer is.

Don Draper as the guy, Gloria Allred as his attorney, it could be epic and/or, what's the buzzword of the century...transformational. Yeah, it could be transformational.

Dude - it's up to you to save the world from itself. Kindly do the needful.

[lipi]

All right, enough. Clearly no one is convincing anyone here. It's a classic clash of morals and ethics.

If you truly believe that no work of art should ever be taken off a museum wall or off the radio, you are a more serene person than I and Siddhattha Gotama, and I envy you.

[JSngry]

You have to take shit off the radio. If you don't, you'll run out of places for new stuff.

Until the nest Genuine Classic I'll take more Mariah Carey & Darlene Love - true Christmas songs, not appropriated "winter/snow/cold" songs, (now THERE's a genuine, proven "slippery slope" already happening, in fact already happened) in exchange for no "Baby, It's Cold Outside", I'd make that deal in a second without even factoring in for less chance of causing discomfort (and oh yeah, feeling discomfort and being offended are SO not the same thing). Throw in some Louis to sweeten the pot (no pun intended!).

Or, you know, we can make it real up in here...

Ever hear "Strokin'" on the general audience radio? Why is that?