How “Baby It’s Cold Outside” May Be Out in the Cold

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, Big Beat Steve said:

If the only possibility of interpreting the lyrics of this song WAS "date rape". Which IMHO it isn't.

(For the record, I find the recordings of this song that I am aware of to be just boring).

Check out the Johnny Mercer/Margaret Whiting version.  The Sammy with Carmen McRae is very good also.  (This is the version my wife is playing on her radio show.)

[Big Beat Steve]

9 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Check out the Johnny Mercer/Margaret Whiting version.  The Sammy with Carmen McRae is very good also.  (This is the version my wife is playing on her radio show.)

Thanks, this might be something. I am not a big Mercer fan but have some of his 78s (but not this one).

[JSngry]

33 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

(For the record, I find the recordings of this song that I am aware of to be just boring).

Ray Charles & Betty Carter boring?

[Big Beat Steve]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Ray Charles & Betty Carter boring?

That's not the ones I was thinking of.

I've never liked Dean Martin nor Michael Bublé, to name just two. And sorry to say, Louis Armstrong's version is funny but not something to put anyone in the "mood" .

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

That's not the ones I was thinking of.

And that's what I don't get - NOBODY, here or in the outside world, has used this version to make their case. the implications of that (and there are several) are astounding or something.

[ghost of miles]

21 hours ago, felser said:

Amen.  Two women in my close extended family, generation down from me, have been rape victims, and both still wear the psychic scars from it every day.  Something that was seen as cute and funny in 1944 can be seen as offensive in 2018. In this case, that represents growth in our culture  I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to perform or listen to the song, but I have no desire to do either.

 

Same here, Felser.  I remember about 20 years ago when my (now-ex) wife commented that the song is creepy.  And I don't much care for most of the performances of it anyway, with the exception of Louis Jordan and Ella Fitzgerald.  But yeah, as jazz director at my station I'm not going to forbid the other two jazz/soul programmers to play it or anything like that, but I stopped playing it on any of my shows a few years ago.  Not judging other people who continue to enjoy the song, but it's not something that I myself feel cool about putting on the air.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 minute ago, ghost of miles said:

Same here, Felser.  I remember about 20 years ago when my (now-ex) wife commented that the song is creepy.  And I don't much care for most of the performances of it anyway, with the exception of Louis Jordan and Ella Fitzgerald.  But yeah, as jazz director at my station I'm not going to forbid the other two jazz/soul programmers to play it or anything like that, but I stopped playing it on any of my shows a few years ago.  Not judging other people who continue to enjoy the song, but it's not something that I myself feel cool about putting on the air.

But don't you feel that's politicizing art?

I had to TTK.

[lipi]

7 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

There you have it folks.  As Charles Krauthammer put it,

The right thinks the opposition is deluded.

The left thinks the opposition is evil.

I think you'll find that my statement, if anything, implies that social and moral conservatism (which is not the same as political conservatism, though the overlap in the US today is great) is the deluded side. Standing on the wrong side of history would mean you got it wrong when you predicted the future. [*] Whether it is absolutely good or evil is a moral question that is quite a different matter—it gets into an argument over absolute versus relative morality very quickly.

[*] Yes, this is ignoring the possibility that you could be predicting the future just fine but are trying to delay it as much as possible. That of course leads to the question, and a fascinating philosophical and psychological one at that: why? 

[duaneiac]

Wow.  I've got just so many different thoughts on this topic.

For the record, I do like the song.  My favortie version is the Johnny Mercer & Margaret Whiting one.  I think it really needs to be heard sung by singers "of that era".  Singers of that era sang like the adults they were, whereas today, any singer younger than Tony Bennett or Willie Nelson is still trying to pretend that they are twenty-somethings.  Mercer & Whiting gave a performance that sounds like the flirtatious bantering that went on all the time in the movies between two adults.  (The musical equivalent, if you will, of the Bogey and Bacall "You know how to whistle, don't you?" scene.)  And the thing which strikes me about the female part, certainly in Ms. Whiting's case and in Ms. Carter's as well, is that the female is no dewy eyed teen; she is a woman who has been around and has heard all the lines before, so she is able to counter each attempted advance the male makes.  The song struck me as a flirtatious contest among equals.

Garth Brooks & Trisha Yearwood have recorded it together, so if the couple singing it is actually married would that make it more or less offensive?

Next, how do you "ban" a song, especially one which has been recorded by hundreds of different performers?  Will the police be showing up to go through my CD collection to confiscate any which have the banned tune in question?  Will I have to tear that page out of my copy of The Complete Lyrics of Frank Loesser? 

Is art always meant to make us comfortable?  Some one mentioned the Dire Straits song, "Money For Nothing" and its use of the word "faggot".  I can understand that the use of that word was not Mark Knopfler's choice, it was the word choice of the character Mark Knopfler was writing about in that song.  One might argue that it was Mr. Knopfler's ultimate decision to use the word, but a writer's dedication must always be to be true to his creation.  If that is the word that character would use in that situation, so be it.  Not all songs have to be about lovable people and situations (see The Collected Works of Randy Newman).  I imagine a lot of people have heard that song and never even knew that word was in there.

Now you wanna talk about creepy and offensive songs, let's talk about "The Girl From Ipanema", which right off let's change that to "Young Empowered Woman From a Location She Chooses Not To Disclose", thank you very much.  There is the offensiveness of the standards by which she is considered desirable:  "tall and tan and young and lovely".  There are billions of us around the world who are short and/or pale and/or old and/or average looking under the best of circumstances and who should rightly be offended, nay outraged by that discriminatory depiction of socially acceptable beauty.  And then there is the creepiness of the singing stalker bemoaning the fact that "she looks straight ahead, not at me".  Oh believe me, buddy, if she is every bit as fine as you claim, she's seen you.  She's learned to be fully aware of her surroundings and she has peripheral vision, so she has see you there "each day" (creepiness factor = 545) as she walks to the sea.  If she wanted you to know she's seen you she would have by now, so give it up you old lech.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Excellent points, Duane. Your view of this and comparable songs just nails it.

[mjzee]

13 minutes ago, duaneiac said:

I can understand that the use of that word was not Mark Knopfler's choice, it was the word choice of the character Mark Knopfler was writing about in that song.

As I remember it, Knopfler and Sting actually overheard a guy working at a hardwares/electronics store saying these things.

17 minutes ago, lipi said:

Standing on the wrong side of history would mean you got it wrong when you predicted the future.

How do you know that your side won't be on the wrong side of history?  None of us can see the future.  Sounds like you're trying to justify your position by pretending you know the upcoming course of history.  Perhaps you can be my stockbroker!  Or as the Babylon Bee put it:

https://babylonbee.com/news/progressive-suddenly-realizes-beliefs-render-intolerant-bigot-ten-years-now

[JSngry]

All sides are wrong sides, so nobody on either side needs to be getting uppity about it. The pendulum of history swings like England do, so all you ideological hotheads just take a breather on that London Fog in your closet, count to ten, huff some helium, and then go doo-wacka-doo-wacka-doo-wacka-do, ok?

[mjzee]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

All sides are wrong sides, so nobody on either side needs to be getting uppity about it. The pendulum of history swings like England do, so all you ideological hotheads just take a breather on that London Fog in your closet, count to ten, huff some helium, and then go doo-wacka-doo-wacka-doo-wacka-do, ok?

Maybe you ought to take your own advice.

 

[felser]

13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

All sides are wrong sides, so nobody on either side needs to be getting uppity about it. The pendulum of history swings like England do, so all you ideological hotheads just take a breather on that London Fog in your closet, count to ten, huff some helium, and then go doo-wacka-doo-wacka-doo-wacka-do, ok?

Third boxcar, midnight train, destination, Bangor, Maine.   I'm a man of means by no means...

[Scott Dolan]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

And that's what I don't get - NOBODY, here or in the outside world, has used this version to make their case. the implications of that (and there are several) are astounding or something.

I made a playlist of the album that is on simply so that I could delete it from the rest of the album. 

Hey, no judgement on two fine artists, but the song is rather boring. Even those two couldn’t inject any meaningful zest into it. 

[mjzee]

https://nypost.com/2018/12/17/radio-station-plays-baby-its-cold-outside-nonstop-amid-controversy/

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

Maybe you ought to take your own advice.

Dude, why do think I recommend it? You think I'm irresponsible enough to just put shit out ther4e that hasn't been user-tested first?

 

[Teasing the Korean]

Here's an angle that has not been discussed and that may be of interest to jazz listeners:

How many Great American Songbook tunes are remembered by the general population anymore?  With each passing year, that era and style of songwriting recedes further into the past.

At the holidays, at least people will hear an Irving Berlin song ("White Christmas") one song with a pretty hip progression ("The Christmas Song") and similar things like "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas."

"Baby it's Cold Outside" is perhaps the only Frank Loesser song that is known by the general populace.  Granted, a few may know "Let's Get Lost," because Chet Baker still has a shred of hipster currency left.  But who remembers, for example, "I Believe in You?" 

So by banning - or selectively avoiding - "Baby It's Cold Outside," one of last standards standing gets eliminated.  

That's all.  And how many people remember "That's All?"  

[lipi]

4 hours ago, mjzee said:

How do you know that your side won't be on the wrong side of history?  None of us can see the future.  Sounds like you're trying to justify your position by pretending you know the upcoming course of history. 

You, my dear, need to pick up a dictionary and look up the meanings of the word "conservative." Then, you must pick up a history book and determine when it was that the "we don't want to change anything, because I've got mine" crowd won in the long term.

My point was that by definition conservatism is a losing battle.

[Dan Gould]

8 minutes ago, lipi said:

You, my dear, need to pick up a dictionary and look up the meanings of the word "conservative." Then, you must pick up a history book and determine when it was that the "we don't want to change anything, because I've got mine" crowd won in the long term.

My point was that by definition conservatism is a losing battle.

Seriously, you encourage someone to pick up a dictionary than offer a definition of ""we don't want to change anything, because I've got mine"?

Oh hell at least you didn't define it as Nazism.

 

[lipi]

14 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Seriously, you encourage someone to pick up a dictionary than offer a definition of ""we don't want to change anything, because I've got mine"?

Oh hell at least you didn't define it as Nazism.

But that *is* what conservatism is, whether you agree or disagree with the current American president, or Republican party, or whatever else: conservatism is wanting to cling to old values and modes of living, regardless of consequences. I admit I made the (entirely reasonable to me) stretch that mostly people want to cling to the-way-things-were when the-way-things-were was beneficial for them.

And don't be silly. Nazism and conservatism aren't the same at all. If you're trying to troll a discussion about the GOP and their general lack of response to certain demonstrations, I'm game, baby, and it's on like Donkey Kong. This thread is unlikely to last long if we go down that road, however.

As an aside: I think it's an intellectual crime *not* to debate politics in this climate, but it's not my website, so I don't really have a say. Which, amusingly, circles right back to a radio station deciding not to play a song and a large group of people starting to shout about bans and but-it-never-bothered-me.

As an aside to an aside (back in front, I guess?): 

I have a melancholy feeling that I have posted this picture here before, in a Weinstein-inspired thread.

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

"Baby it's Cold Outside" is perhaps the only Frank Loesser song that is known by the general populace.  Granted, a few may know "Let's Get Lost," because Chet Baker still has a shred of hipster currency left.  But who remembers, for example, "I Believe in You?"

Oh hell, man, I do, and will continue to, that's a GREAT song that is maybe not played by too many "jazz players" because it's too damn hard! But Charles McPherson did it right.

I don't know how "general" you want to call the "general populace" but don't you think most people know Guys and Dolls in the aggregate, and definitely "Luck Be A Lady Tonight", just from casino ads all throughout the universes know and unknown alike?

And what about "What Are You Doing New Years Eve?"?

I don't know how many people really know these songs any more, and don't really care. People use what they think they need. But this is a strong list of tunes included here that anybody who hears "jazz" stands a good chance of being exposed to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Loesser

Also, in defense of the song's original intent (which is of course wholly removed from its current "interpretation", dig this:

Baby, It's Cold Outside" from the M-G-M picture "Neptune's Daughter" (1949). This was originally a song which Loesser and his wife Lynn performed at parties for the private entertainment of friends. They also recorded the song for Mercury Records. Under contract to Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer to supply a full score for Neptune's Daughter, Loesser included this song which he had created in 1944, originally for their housewarming party.

So yeah, a dude wrote a song about raping his wife and she dug it because, hey, you know that's what they all want deep down. They probably ended up fucking in front of the guests.

Seriously?

I'm more than willing to accept the real validity of the current lens, but it's a piss-poor cultural strategy to start a discussion with right now and insist that it end right there.

otoh, if you've played enough weddings, you're familiar with the "Do NOT Play List". Sure, you can piss off the client and play one or more things on it, but hey, there's plenty other songs. And the next gig will ask for ALL of the songs on that list.

I still blame men for this, though. Dudes have been getting sleazier as time goes by. Now, the market attempts a corrective.

[Scott Dolan]

This conversation is going downhill in epic fashion. 

[Big Beat Steve]

12 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

That's all.  And how many people remember "That's All?"  

Ever since I heard the version recorded by T. Texas Tyler I am having a rough time deciding whether I'd rather spin Sister Rosetta Tharpe's recording with Lucky Millinder (or one of here re-recordings if need be) or the T. Texas one.    And have decided I'll let the occasion decide and have found that both fit and fill a purpose.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[Brad]

10 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

This conversation is going downhill in epic fashion. 

That’s what I was thinking when I posted what I said yesterday. I regret now posting it. I should have realized this would happen.