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Mark Stryker

Larry Young Unity alternates

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Posted (edited)

Gang ---

The four alternate takes from Larry Young's "Unity" -- two of "If" and one each of "Moontrane" and "Beyond All Limits" --seem to have only come out legitimately as part of a Japanese CD issue of the record. Is that true? Asking for a friend.

Thanks

Edited by Mark Stryker

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There's two alternates of "Moontrane", although one's just a breakdown that makes it into Woody' 2nd chorus, where he flubberjubs just a littlebit, so they stop the take.

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6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

There's two alternates of "Moontrane", although one's just a breakdown that makes it into Woody' 2nd chorus, where he flubberjubs just a littlebit, so they stop the take.

I don’t have that one, just the others. They were sent to me a while ago — I think before the legit Japanese CD came out — but I don’t recall exactly. Just trying to get a handle on when and how many times they have been released legitimately.

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10 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This seems to be the only issue: https://www.discogs.com/Larry-Young-Unity/release/6222209

There should be a record of just the alternates, an EP, called In Order To Form A More Perfect Unity...

Thanks. That’s what I thought. FWIW, I think they used the best all-around takes for the masters, but most of the solos on the alternates  — especially my Joe —are inspired. There’s a take of “If” — can’t recall which one — where I think I actually prefer Joe’s solo to the master take. 

Those motherfuckers were insanely consistent.   

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It was an inspired session!

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Posted (edited)

Yes. They have never been issued in the US.

Over the years, the Japanese put out LPs and CDs with alternates from various sessions, before it became the custom to tack them onto the session where they belonged.

This special Unity was part of a batch that came out for the 75th anniversary. There are also precious out-takes of Speak No Evil, Out To Lunch, Free For All, Blue John etc. The US needs to put out a 2-CD set with all of these since they dropped the ball in 2014. I would get this since I missed a few (Mode For Joe, Cannonball, Lou Donaldson maybe).

Can we make a list of all the alternates that popped up for this series? I will start. Let's include timings to see how many CDs are needed.

Unity

If 1 6:28

If 2 5:43

The Moontane 6:40 

Beyond All Limits 6:04

Speak No Evil

Witch Hunt 6:55

Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum 6:00

(an alternate of Dance Cadaverous was released in the US)

Out To Lunch

Hat And Beard 8:37

Something Sweet, Something Tender 5:44

Free For All

Free For All 8:27

Blue John

Jean de Fleur 9:07

Chunky Cheeks 5:45

I Need You So 4:49

KInda Slick 5:05

Untitled Patton Tune 8:33

Mode For Joe

Mode For Joe 9:29

Somethin' Else

Autumn Leaves timing?

Here 'tis

Blues #4 timing?

 

Edited by bertrand

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"Somethin' Else" had an alternate of Autumn Leaves, and "Here 'Tis" has a "Blues #4."

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Thanks Lon, I updated the list. Is that it, there were no others. Do you know the timings? Those are the three I don't have.

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I assume the discogs entry for the new Mode For Joe alternate is accurate (but I can try and check mine to be sure) - which says 9:29.

https://www.discogs.com/Joe-Henderson-Mode-For-Joe/release/11227057

And it’s a dandy too!! A lot of it feels through-composed, and it’s nice to be able to compare the takes, and just see how different they are. The overall effect is very similar, but the takes are quite different, which was a joy to experience the first time I heard the new one.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, bertrand said:

Thanks Lon, I updated the list. Is that it, there were no others. Do you know the timings? Those are the three I don't have.

"Blues #4" is 10:11. According to youtube "Autumn Leaves" timing is 9:33.

I'm not sure I have any others with previously unreleased tracks.

Edited by jazzbo

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Posted (edited)

here's a few more - not all alternates ie some Three Sounds titles were only first released in this series

1. Blakey - Moanin' "Blues March" (alt, tk # unknown) 6:01

2. Coltrane - Blue Train "Blue Train" (alt, tk #7) 7:12

3. Mobley - Workout "Three Coins In The Fountain" (alt, tk #19) 4:49

4. Three Sounds - Hey There "Billy Boy" 4:15

5. Three Sounds - Here We Come "The Girl Next Door" 4:36

6. Three Sounds - Here We Come "This Is The Way 'Tis" 4:26

7. Turrentine - Hustlin' "Trouble (No 2)" (alt, tk # unknown) 7:33

8. Turrentine - Jubilee Shout "Jubilee Shout" (alt, tk # unknown) 8:31

Edited by romualdo

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Was the Mobley track in the Mosaic box?

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1 hour ago, bertrand said:

Was the Mobley track in the Mosaic box?

nope - it's part of the 60-61 sessions (Soul Station, Roll Call, Workout & Another Workout) that have been excluded from both Mobley Mosaics

Just discovered that the previously unreleased alternate take (#7) of Blue Train has been reissued on a Blue Note Blu Ray only disc (UK, Europe & US) in 2015 - this also includes a further unreleased alternate take of Lazy Bird (tk #1)

https://www.discogs.com/John-Coltrane-Blue-Train/release/7483613

 

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There's a new Blue Train with yet another new alternate??? Too bad they didn't do Heavy Dipper at the session as planned, that would be worth buying it again.

So there is probably more than enough for 2 CDs. Again, if Blue Note puts this together, I'm buying.

 

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Be ready for more Curtis Fuller than you want.

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6 hours ago, bertrand said:

There's a new Blue Train with yet another new alternate??? Too bad they didn't do Heavy Dipper at the session as planned, that would be worth buying it again.

So there is probably more than enough for 2 CDs. Again, if Blue Note puts this together, I'm buying.

 

Yep, four alternates now in toto - being fed in dribs & drabs - two in 1997, one in 2013 & the most recent in 2015

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Posted (edited)

And then they will complain when people share files with friends. They are asking for it.

Edited by bertrand

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Posted (edited)

I can’t remember the Ruppli BN discography (which I own) listing any extra material, but I’d pay good money for some decent Mothership outtakes - especially 25 minutes worth, like we finally got with Unity.

I get why Unity is THE ubiquitous Larry Young leader-date, but it was Mothership that was maybe THE single most eye-opening Blue Note session I’d ever heard up until that point (when I finally scored a used Larry Young Mosaic around 2002 or so - maybe a year before the Big O board came into existence).

Before Mothership (and this was before I’d heard any of the back half of John Patton’s BN output), I pretty much thought all organ dates sounded like Jimmy Smith records (give or take, but nothing any more radical than Jimmy Smith).

Yeah, Unity was kinda different, but back then (barely 10 years out of college), I was still so engrossed in Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw, that I though most of Unity’s “difference” was because of them.

Mothership was like half a dozen shots of vodka, that first few times I heard it. WTF is this??? And that’s Lee Morgan?? - W! T! F!  Plus all those other later non-Unity (post-Unity) BN Young albums - those were crazy too.

But Mothership especially, completely changed my entire viewpoint of what writing for a b3 context could be. Easily one of my 10 favorite Blue Note sessions ever.

My favorite way of describing Mothership is that it’s like a cross between the feeling and overall effect of Complete Communion and Unity. Extraordinarily special, and unique.

I know the language of Complete Communion and Mothership isn’t that similar, but they both hit me very much the same way. And now that I’m thinking of it, so does the Legendary Hasaan trio date with Max Roach. Different language, but it hits me the same way too.

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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Posted (edited)

The discography does not necessarily list usable out-takes. I am pretty sure most of the ones listed above were not in there. I will check this evening if someone does not beat me to it.

In other words, the only way we could know is if someone decided to listen to Mother Ship again to specifically look for other material. Exactly how the bonus tracks above came to light is a mystery.

Edited by bertrand

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So what is the question exactly - are there more usable takes from Mother Ship?

It could well be but someone would have to listen to the master tape and be willing to do what it takes to convince Blue Note that they could be worth releasing.

I am not someone who can get access to the tapes. It seems these days that Zev Feldman is the gatekeeper so someone would have to pitch the idea to him. I am sure he has an email address.

I can see that Blue Note would probably be hesitant to repackage sessions that have already been issued just to add a take or two, especially because their preference these days is towards vinyl. The fact that the CD is long OOP and that there is a new generation of interested fans out there never seems to factor in. Partially our fault for whining about every reissue of Blue Train.

Here is an idea that would be thinking outside the box, which means that it is doomed from the start: launch a new download-only series of rarities from the vaults. These could be random tracks from different sessions that are worth a reconsideration, e.g. the Unity out-takes which have never been released in the US. A huge advantage to this approach would be that it does not require re-issuing the whole session, nor entire unissued sessions, just the salvageable stuff. A track here, a track there. Kind of like the Lost Sessions CD, but as downloads.

Yes, there are some challenges to this:

1) Leaders, sidemen and composers still need to be paid union rates etc. Reasonable. But at least they save on packaging.

2) Some idiots will complain 'I paid for Mothership, and now I have to pay extra for an alternate'. The same idiots who wanted those Mobley sessions reissued in LP order. They probably also returned their copy of Mother Ship because Lee Morgan breaks down on the title tune.

3) I am an idiot who knows nothing about the subtle intricacies about the record business and am talking out of my ass. This is a preventative disclaimer because I know it's coming.

Bertrand.

 

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11 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Here is an idea that would be thinking outside the box, which means that it is doomed from the start: launch a new download-only series of rarities from the vaults. These could be random tracks from different sessions that are worth a reconsideration, e.g. the Unity out-takes which have never been released in the US. A huge advantage to this approach would be that it does not require re-issuing the whole session, nor entire unissued sessions, just the salvageable stuff. A track here, a track there. Kind of like the Lost Sessions CD, but as downloads.

 

Verve did this for a while (From the Verve Vaults), in the midst of the CD reissue craze.  I think most if not all eventually found their way to the streaming sites legitimately, whereas if they hadn't digitized them at all it would have just been the usual PD suspects.  I've completely given up on eMusic in large part because it was so glutted with PD dross.  iTunes certainly has some of this, but it is a bit more under control, and they generally seem to promote major label releases.

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59 minutes ago, ejp626 said:

Verve did this for a while (From the Verve Vaults), in the midst of the CD reissue craze.  I think most if not all eventually found their way to the streaming sites legitimately, whereas if they hadn't digitized them at all it would have just been the usual PD suspects.  I've completely given up on eMusic in large part because it was so glutted with PD dross.  iTunes certainly has some of this, but it is a bit more under control, and they generally seem to promote major label releases.

Was this unissued alternates or out-takes or just sessions that would not sell enough as a CD reissue?

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51 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Was this unissued alternates or out-takes or just sessions that would not sell enough as a CD reissue?

I believe it was unissued albums/sessions that had previously made it to LP but not CD.  I don't think there were alternates or out-takes but I could be wrong.  I don't think I ever downloaded any at that time.

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