AllenLowe

well, yes and no, couw, and thanks for proving me correct in so many ways - my disagreement with you was over your little tweaks at me whenever I made a comment you did not like, and you've backed off, as have I - and you will remember that I deleted one thread that got too personal - unlike you I have no desire to re-live that, or make it personal once more - until now you've gone your own way and I've gone mine - so, no, there is nothing ironic about this situation (unless you count how your current comment proves me correct in retrospect) - also, couw, you don't seemed to find it convenient to remember that I sent you a personal email at that time to try to reconcile our personal battle - which, as you may also recall, you felt free to ignore -

it's the Bill Frisell thread - and I gotta admit that what bothers me, in addition to what he's doing, is that I find myself doing the same in response - it's a very ugly circle, and, if you're a hot-head like me, a dangerous game. But I think enough ought to be enough; I really don't appreciate the personal comments that don't just relate to my opinions but to my whole professional reputation - and, unlike Clem, when I fight this out, I don't hide behind some pseudo-hip mask of anonymity -

right - at any rate - to me, three hours of continuous playing should have been enough to allow him to show me something interesting - and I believe you would respond the same way. Go hear somebody and listen for this period of time (and go TWICE, as I did, hoping for SOMETHING) and tell me if you would go back for more, or pay out another penny or spend any more time if you were so completely disappointed - as I said if he could not do it in that amount of time, something is wrong - but, on the other hand, if he's made some good recordings, I'm willing to check it out again. But those nights he really was a B.S.'er, and my reaction is completely justified -

so far, in a parallel thread here, Clementine has called me a "douche" and a "jackoff," has repeatedly attacked me personally, has slandered me professionally and basically slimed on my reputation - can I assume this is just Organissimo business as usual, or do I have a real grievance here? I ain't perfect, but I know when I've gone too far; clearly Clementine has no such self-limits -

I'm going to add a question to the moderators - why Clem is allowed to continue this name calling - he's already called me a douche and a jackoff - while others have been kicked off this forum for equivalent crimes -

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent for cultural name-dropping -

Impossible - the reason I bring up Murray was because of the earlier question of the relevance of having worked with musicians who are being judged musically - I was just pointing out that this kind of familiarity sometimes allows a deeper understanding of a musicans's strengths and weaknesses - one you've done this you find out what they can and cannot do, and it's illuminating in a way that is just not possible without this kind of association.

and Clem, buzz off, you phony critic who's been credited in so many places that nobody knows what they are - and yes, I pay the musicians who work for me, does that make them whores? and sure, Ros Rudd and Julius Hemphill would work for anybody who'd pay 'em, sure, that's why they are side men on SO many CDs -

impossible: you mean, you object to the fact that I'm judging his playing based on what he plays when he's playing live? Excuse me? Do we need a little refresher on music, which is basically a live medium, ? and three hours of IN PERSON, incoherent performance, shouldn't give me enough to go on? He wasn't drunk - and yes, after hearing how terrible he sounded live, why should I want to go out and spend $15 for a CD?

just to add, per the fact that he rocks - I hold this in his favor, having lost almost all inerest, these days, in mainstream or even a lot of new music/jazz and having taken up the guitar for that very reason - I would sooner listen to Jeff Beck or 60's Link Wray, or Jimmy Reed, for that matter, than nearly any other (jazz) guitarist, though Frisell (to bring this back) is one of the few I really listen to and admire. Another guy I like is Brandon Ross -

I appreciate the fact that we can restore this to the realm of discussion, and not insult, and apologize if I got a little carried away, per Clem (hey, it's not pleasant being called a douche) - anyway, my response to Clines is to two of his performances that I attended ca. 2002-2003. I have not listened to the CDs, and if they reflect a real and thoughful musicianship, than I really trust your word on this - in person, he was loud and unintersting, unrelenting - and one might say the same about, say, Albert Ayler, but I honestly found Clines to be repetitive and what I would label formalist - sound on sound but in a way it has been done beofre, and for TOO long - I was really put off by what I found to be the SOS, especially in the new-age/newmusic/free jazz community. But let me do this, I'll pick up CD or two (recommned one or two, if possible) - and I'll go from there -

now, per Clines - he is no fool and has learned certain modernist mannerisms which, like too-many post-modernist musicians, he works to death without any real understanding of what they mean, where they come from, or where they might go - and yes that's only my opinion. But it's based a a technical grasp of what he's trying to do and what he's actually doing -

let me add something here, per EGO and mention of affiliation - yes, I'm proud of my past associations and my credentials - I do think (and this is why it is relevant here) that many non-musician critics (certainly not all) are often snowed by certain kinds of players. And, like it or not, once you've spent time on the bandstand with someone, you really see what they can do and what they cannot do - for example, after playing with David Murray, I understand now what a mediocre and mannered player he is, with certain good musical ideas and certain talents which he has used to exploit a certain kind of public/jazz gullibility. And yes, this is only my opinion, but based on a certain kind of experience which is unique and which I will certainly emphasize if it helps to make my point - and the fact that you did not even grasp this, in relation to my response to Clem's attack (read it again) shows me you need to read a little more closely - and I ain't no ex-musician -

MD - you're missing the point here - Clem has characterized me as an armchair critic, someone who talks but doesn't do - when this really applies to him. I was responding VERY SPECIFICALLY to his personal attack, nothing elitist about it - and you're right, Clines, who I don't like, is certainly worthy of discussion - but if Clem insists on always making it personal, than it will become personal - I'm sorry, but I'm just thoroughly sick of him and don't find him amusing anymore -

"if we wanna be honest, in glow of the first two records & their undoubted potential, the action was with Gene Clark, Neil, Skynyrd... & in other diverse ways, John Cale, the Stooges, Lemmy-era Hawkwind, the Groundhogs..." huh? John Cale? give us a break. bad art rock.

Clem you're a moron and and fake and, unlike you, I''ve actually produced some music, I've actually MADE music with people like Julius Hemphill and Roswell Rudd, (how many bandstands have YOU performed on?) and I know when a musician is faking, like Cline is. And I also play the guitar (I know you play every instrument). I've seen him perform on several occassions; his interviews are impressive, he talks a good game, but has no reall understanding of the musical concepts he is trying to espouse. He has taken the shallowest aspects of open improvisation (as you have taken he shallowest aspects of musical criticism and pseudo stream-of conscious-newjournalist-b.s) and made a mannerist fetish of it all- hey, also like you. No wonder you like him so much. Really Celm, you can BS a lot of people here but I've known schmucks like you all my life, drop lotsa names and act like an intellectual wannabe and don't know your intellectual ass from their intellectual elbow. So buzz off I don't need the aggravation -

thanks everybody for orders - there's still more than a few pending payments, so pay up oh deadbeats before I start sending you Kenny G CDs as punishment -

and she really understands microphone placement -

well, as long as they still have the half-man/half woman - and as long as I don't run into any long-lost relatives...

and Rosemary Woods was a great engineer-

I wonder if the Jeff referred to in the interview is Jeff Fuller, a great bassist and friend of mine from New Haven, who was working with Lou a lot at that time - and to whom I introduced Lou -

well, I could.... but that would be wrong, that's for sure* -Richard Nixon, from one of the Watergate Tapes

here's some CDs for your listening pleasure (but only if you pay me for them): Thelonious Monk Quartet: Live in Stockholm 1961 - Dragon -2 CDs. w/Rouse/Ore/and Larry Kart's favorite dummer, FrankieDunlop - I have this in plastic sleeves, not jewel box: $13 shipped Barbara Carroll: Live at the Carlyle: DRG: $6 shipped Dizzy Gillespie and his Quintet, feat James Moody: In Concert, France, 11/24/65: RTE: $8 shipped. Maxine Sullivan: Say It With a Kiss: Jasmine: $6 shipped. Frank Sinatra/Tommy Dorsey: Learn to Croon: BMG: $8 shipped. Dewey Redman Quartet: Living on the Edge: Black Saint: $8 shipped. Nat Pierce Orch: The Ballad of Jazz Street: Eddie Bert, Paul Gonsalves, Paul Quinnichette, Clark Terry: Hep: $9 shipped Dizzy Gillespie: The Legendary Big Band Concerts 1948, Pasadena and Paris: Vogue: $8 shipped Phineas Newborn: The Newborn Touch: OJC: $6.50 shipped Phineas Newborn: Harlem Blues, w.Ray brown, Elvin Jones: OJC: $6.50 shipped. Tim Berne: Fulton Street Maul: Columbia: $8 shipped Tim Berne Fractured Fairy Tales: JMT: $9 shipped Art Tatum: Complete Capitol Recordings Vol. 1: Capitol: $9 shipped. Johnny Griffin: The Man I Love: live at Montmarte: Black Lion: $6.50 shipped. Bill Evans: Solos Session: Volume 2: Milestone: $6.50 shipped. Bill Evans at Town Hall: 1966: Verve: $8 shipped Gil Evans/Steve Lacy: Paris Blues Owl. $10 shipped. Hamton Hawes: Blues for Bud: Black Lion: $7 shipped Charles Mingus: Town Hall Concert: OJC. $6 shipped. Max Roach. Percussion Bitter Sweet. Grp/Impulse. $8.50 shipped. Denny Zeitlin: Trio. Windham Hill. $8 shipped [Sarah Vaughan: In Hi-Fi: Sony. $6.50 shipped. Isham Jones: The Classic Years Vol 1: 1929-1931. $6 shipped. Benny Goodman: Air Play (Live broacasts): Signature/CBS: $6.50 shipped. Bud Powell: In Paris: Discovery: $10 shipped. Art Tatum: Tea for Two: Black Lion: $6 shipped. James Moody: And the Hip Organ Trio: French release of Xanadu: $10 shipped. Cecil Taylor: Conquistador: Blue Note: $6.50 shipped. JR Montrose + the Joe Abdeely Trio: In Action: Bainbridge: $11 shipped Rose Murphy: At The Piano: Audiophile: $6 shipped Red Norvo/Mildred Bailey: Jivin the Jeep: Hep CD: $6.50 shipped. Miles Davis - Jack Johnson - this is the 1992 release - $5 shipped Jackie McLean: Let Freedom Ring: Blue Note: $6 shipped [Dizzy Gillespie/Max Roach: In Paris: BMG/Vogue: $6.50 shipped. Sarah Vaughan: The Roulette Years: Volume One/Two (single CD): $6.50 shipped. Bill Evans: Conversations with Myself: $8.00 shipped. Miles Davis: Cookin at the Plugged Nickel (single CD): $6.50 shipped Andrew Hill: Point of Departure: Blue Note: $6.50 shipped. Chick Corea: Now He Sings Now He Sobs: $6.50 shipped. John Carter: Fields: Gramavision:[/b] $16 shipped. Woody Herman and his Orch: Live in Stereo At Marion; 6/8/57 Featuring Bill Harris: Jazz Hour. $6.50 shipped. email me at alowe@maine.rr.com - paypal, check or money order -

damn - I always confuse those two - but than, who wouldn't?

actually I've never spoken to Lou - but based on some recent info I've found, he's likely related to me on my mother's side -