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Very very interesting thoughts indeed ! Thank you for writing them down ! There was always some contraversy about what Miles SAID and what he DID. The quintet he had in the late 60´s and the early "electric stuff" (it still was more acoustic indeed, only replacing the bass fiddle with a Fender bass and the concert piano with a Fender Rhodes) was very free and open, and there WAS many notes and Chick Corea was almost as "abstract" as Cecil Taylor, so I keep to what the man DID rather than what he said. The story you tell about Brookmeyer....I had to laugh because I dig Ornette and Cherry so much (I´m white but I don´t scream over stuff I don´t understand only to be "hip") since my earliest days of listening to "jazz". But I sure DID NOT like Brookmeyer. When he began to travel with the Mel Lewis Big Band and composed and arranged for them, I had to leave it just didn´t say anything to me. About John Lewis and his liking or disliking of bop I´d say: He was very important to bop, his contributions to the Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra were enormous and as Tadd Dameron he was responsible for certain voicing that enriched that style of music, especially if it´s about tunes and ensemble playing. Fantastic. And as Dameron he didn´t care for all those who started to try to copy Bud Powell, he had his own thing. But I must admit I only have his early MJQ albums (one half of the Milt Jackson "Whizzard of the Vibes") and I think 2 or three on Prestige. I also think that "The Last Concert" would appeal to me. About Third Stream I doubt I know anything. It never was a topic among my friends and music colleages......

Was also there. I knew Fritz Pauer very very well and he was my mentor. Maybe I have seen you somewhere sometime without knowing it´s you.

have you also been there ?

Red Octopus and Jazz by Freddie, those where the places where I could be spotted then..... But I am glad the there is still a lot of stuff goin around. Now you mostly can spot me at ZWE´s .

Yeah those were the times. That´s the fantastic club where I spent my youth. Saw Johnny Griffin also there, and to hear as often as possible the fantastic rhythm section Pauer-Woode-Inzalaco , or just as own unit (They recorded Blues Inside Out at that time), That was my homebase. I stayed there into the small hours when I was still underage........

Very interesting inputs. First, reading the title I had thought it´s "Three or Four Shades of the Blues" which is a Mingus opus I saw him live playin it . Didn´t know there is also a book about that earlier time with KOB, Ornette, Trane and so on. Well I don´t really have much about Red Mitchell, I think I have a lot of other bassists from Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Chambers, Ron, Buster Williams and so on, but evidently no Red Mitchell. I have read that when Mingus got a new bass delivered to the hospital where Mingus was at the end of 77, Red Mitchell came by and tried it, but he tuned it to 5th, which I don´t understand, since I have a bass fiddle my self and it´s tuned in 4th as any bass instrument. I was astonished that Klook said that John Lewis hated jazz. Well I tell you what, maybe John Lewis is not my first choice as a pianist, but his little spare solos are jewelries and I love it. Just had listend to a set live with Parker he did, and he is wonderful on "Swedish Schnapps", and I love his MJQ albums for Prestige. Ornette has always been a favourite of mine, but the very early albums still sound very much boppish to me. I listen more to the things he did from the Mid Sixties on, from Golden Circle to Primetime everything..... And I don´t think Miles hated Ornette, at least not on alto and as a composer, but yeah he hated that Ornette played trumpet since he is not a trumpet player.

Well yeah, it was "gewoehnungsbeduerftig" for me even when it came out, but let´s say since "Three or Four Shades of Blues" I had enough time to get used to it. It was the Atlantic Label that wanted to combine Mingus with fusion guitarists. There would have been even another project from Atlantic to get Mingus AND Stanley Clark, both Atlantic Artists together.

As much as I remember from those happy years when I saw Mingus live, that long track "Three Worlds of Drums" was planned while Mingus had toured North Africa during his fantastic world tour in Spring/Summer 1977 (also in Europe as witnessed by myself). Though his label Atlantic wanted to press him into a certain direction of short tracks to get radio play, which he fulfilled with shorter tunes, but he always managed to get larger works recorded, like the wonderful opus "Music for Todo Modo", "Three or Four Shades of the Blues", "Cumbia and Jazz Fusion" and finally this "Three Worlds of Drums". It was planned to be performed live, like "Cumbia" but it never happened. After Mingus could not play the bass fiddle anymore I heard that the band with Mingus on bass replaced by Eddy Gomez or Jiri Mraz under the direction of Danny Richmond continued to perform at Vanguard and it´s there where they also played the live version for quinted of "Three Worlds of Drums". When this album came out, I first didn´t buy it because I didn´t want to hear a Mingus record without Mingus himself on bass (I don´t like some of the early 60´s albums where he played piano only). But later I changed my mind and love that "Three World of Drums" since I love drummers and percussion, and this became a favourite of mine. On side B there is a fantastic version of "Devil Woman" , much better than the original (on which Mingus also didn´t play bass). So finally, in spite of the fact that nobody could play the bass as great as Mingus did, this is a fine album where I can learn a lot of stuff for my own musical plans for the future.....

agreed !

me to ! this was the best rhythm section. But also Shadow Wilson was a wonderful drummer. I listen first of all to drummers, so I have heard them all. And in Monk´s last active years from 1970-76 his son was a very very good drummer. And a highlight of drumming with Monk was when Philly Joe Jones sat in for an obscure and weak drummer in Paris 1969.

I think I have one Green album from about 1969 from the style of clothes and the hairdo on the cover photo, and it sounds like some very early jazz rock. But once again: I´m sure he was not mentioned here in Viena in jazz rock fan circles. We all heard and studied what was around, but as for electric jazz our men were Miles, Herbie, RTF, Tony´s Lifetime and so on. Our listening habits were splitted between late Free Jazz or Post Coltrane and early electric/funk jazz. So I´m sure that a lot of those attempts of BN in the early 70´s to record a lot of electric stuff with all those many instruments, like they also did with Lou Donaldson, was not noticed here. It did not sell here, while all the albums of Miles from Bitches Brew on, and all the Headhunters and RTF stuff and Lifetime stuff sold extremly well.......

In my case, during the times before Blue Note closed, I mean when I used to learn about all those great musicians, Blue Note was for me mainly the label where I found the music I was lookin for at that time: Wayne, Freddie, Herbie, Sam Rivers, Joe Henderson, McCoy, Elvin Jones, Tony Williams and my favourite Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry and Cecil Taylor records. So I was not at all aware about the many mainstream dates or the dates with organ, since I just was not listening to that kind of music when I was so young. I discovered Green as late as the CD reissue boom of the 90´s. That was the first time I heard him and I think it was "Solid" with that version of "Ezzthetics" and so on.

I have one LP with that same strange and somehow a bit cheap looking cover design. Junior Cook is great and I have seen him together with Bill Hardman, or also with Louis Hayes as I think. I don´t have that, I think with a few exceptions I have a big hole in my Dexter discography. I have the early Savoys and Dials, some of the Steeple Chase and later the CBS LPs after his return to the States. It may be that the reason was that Dexter in the late 60´s and early 70´s was not my main focus, it was a time when his playing might not have been so much in fashion in the USA. But I think I remember I heard a Dexter Gordon at Montreux from that same time at someone´s place and it was more interesting for that time, since it had Fender Rhodes and electric bass, so it might have been more "modern" at the time I heard it......., but really: I became a fan of Dexter only after I had learned that there were men before Mingus, who´s names were Bird, Diz, Fats, Bud, .......and naturally: Dexter !

Hey yes ! And the interesting thing is, that a lot of the numbers that is on this Bud from earlier years, later re-entered in Bud´s set lists. In France he played mostly bop classics like Salt Peanuts, Shaw Nuff, Anthropology, Ornithology etc etc, and when he returned back to New York, he started to play those typical old American standards again, like "Deep Night", "Black Magic" and "Though Swell" and since those melodies some of them are from the late 1920´s , Bud plays some stride sections on them, So this earlier album made shortly before Bud left the States to go to Paris might be an important Milestone. And as you know how I get pissed up if the drums are not recorded properly, here you can HEAR Max Roach, not so inaudible like on "Jazz Giant". Oh I will have to purchase this. From all trumpet players who played with Mingus, Walrath was the best for my tastes. Man, I witnessed those magic live moments from 1975-77 and he was becoming stronger and stronger. I think on "Changes 1 & 2" he still had to find his place in the band, but 1 & 2 years later he was just incredible fine. NEVER in live I will forget his strong, Fats Navarro influenced sound on that first latin solo on "Cumbia&Jazz Fusion". I mean the studio version is fine, but the live versions I heard was a bit faster and without the added studio instruments. Or on "Three or Four Shades of the Blues", listen to Walrath´s trumpet. It´s interesting that I have not heard so much about him after he had left Mingus. Same with Ricky Ford and Bob Neloms, somehow I remember them best for the days they were my heroes because they were on stage with Mingus and Richmond......

Richie Cole was very much in demand in the early 80´s I remember. He was described as 2nd generation bop player or so, but somehow I have the impression that after that he slightly disappeared from the main jazz scene. I once saw him live at a festival, some nice tunes but nothing exceptional, he had a completely unknown rhythm section. But it was somehow unkind for Richie Cole, because one day before Jackie McLean had played on the same stage with Bobby Hutcherson, Herbie Lewis and Billy Higgins, and you know Jackie McLean is about all I want to hear on alto, it´s the non plus ultra for me. Leningrad, how much would I like to see it, people who had been there described it as something magic. We had a neighbour lady who went on holiday only to visit the URSS during those years.

I think it is one of the essential Bud Powell albums for all who study his music, mostly for pianists. I heard it at a very early age and knew that if I listen much and learn about that musical conception of bop, I´ll eventually master it. But since the very very first Bud Powell I had heard was a session from the same time with Parker, Fats Navarro, Curley Russell and Art Blakey, I remember I noticed that the Verve session is on the same piano level, but for my tastes it missed that hearing of the drums. I mean you have Max Roach on that and can´t hear him, and you can hear Blakey so well on the Bird-Fats thing...... There was another Verve album with Bud playing solo, and another trio record with strangly Buddy Rich on drums but again you don´t hear him much. Also on Verve I think I have "The Lonely One" which is a very fine album with some vintage bop tunes with some better rhythm section with Percy Heath and Kenny Clarke, and I think there is a very good Art Taylor playing on "Conception", also a tune from a Verve recording. I only find that the liner Notes of this album are quite dumb, it was not written by someone who really KNOWS Bud´s music......

Well I don´t really remember. I started listening to jazz at an early age and it is possible that nothing before did hit me as much as jazz. I remember there was one pop tune that I liked that was shortly before I got to hear jazz like Miles or Mingus or who was alive, and it was somethin´ called "Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree" and I still like it. My piano colleage that great Oliver Kent once performed it and memories came back. I must have been 13 or so and it was the age when you began to look at girlies....,

From what decade was this ? 40´s, 50´s ? Brew Moore had a crew cut. And Al Haig hat something like that in the lowest row right, the "Professional Contour", that´s how Al Haig had it if I look at it. "College Contour" looks a bit like Nazi look in my opinion...... Scary, is that from Cernobîl ?

oh, that´s bad, I knew he eventually died but didn´t know when, It would have been a chance to see him live and anyway I thought as more the kind of mainstream bassist he would have sounded great with Woody Herman. He is mentioned in a book of contemporanous musicians who remember Bird, I think it is a compilation published by Robert Reisner, nothing musical interesting, but nice to read and there is also o photo of Bird with Duvivier, so they played and maybe recorded together...... I musts admit, when I first read his name as the bassist on "Amazing Bud Powell Vol. II" that he is French, since I thought that "Duvivier" is pronounced in french and since I had heard that Bud lived in France before I got to know his music, I had thought that that´s the reason, Bud in France, logical: French Bass Player "Duvivier". Living with his mother ? Strange, Didn´t he have his own family ?

Well that "Ramblin´" is not so bad, but if I want to hear Ornette Coleman with "electric instruments" I rather prefer the original, I mean "Primetime". I love electric jazz but it outa be more the rough thing, like 1970´s Miles and Coleman. I must admit I never really heard much about David Sandborn otherwise than a lotta folks mentioning his name in those 1980´s or 1990´. I think it´s the kind of jazz that people like, who otherwise do not like jazz, people who dig the more polished versions. As what I hear from the saxophone sound, he sure can play, but never ever could it touch me as much as Jackie McLean, or living altoists like Donald Harrison or Vincent Herring to give an example.

hah, Allan hasn´t changed much ! I have played with him for decades and I think if I only would have met him in 1976 and the second time right now, I still would have recognized him: Now he´s 75 and still looks ultra hip, still long hair and so, and so great playin´. The 3 gigs I had with him about 3 weeks ago, it was heaven on earth, especially the 3rd day. My own compositon "Blues for Allan" ( Alessa Records, ALR 1131) is dedicated to his very personal style of playing, I´d recommend it to all who love Allan.

Sure, but if I would reduce the stuff to wiki search there would not remain anything for me to discuss the music. And no wiki and no discogs can replace my personal history in jazz, where I didn´t read about Ricky Ford but saw him with my biggest idol, or my first idol in Jazz, no one less than Mr. Charles Mingus himself, and really study Ricky´s input in the band. So I might say sorry that I asked instead of having a look on wiki, but that´s me..... Interesting question: Maybe he was more a "Musician´s musician" and this can be very very important, because it´s the horn players who must feel comfortable with a pianist. If I would have been a trumpet player or a saxophone player during that time, I sure would have preferred to have Ray Bryant on piano to a so called "star pianist". He is very nice, has a nice touch and wonderful chords and he can support a player. I´m no record collector so I don´t have records of him under his own name, but my first hearing experience was on "Miles Davis with Milt Jackson and Jackie McLean", a nice little album from the 50´s or so. Ray is compin´so great and his little piano solos are treasures. Years later I saw him live with a good local band formed by vibes, guitar, bass, drums and perc ("Together" was the name of that band), and it was wonderful. So again, I don´t have wiki experiences about him, but have listened a bit to what he did and what I saw him doin.....

This must be great, I am a big fan of Ed Blackwell. Under his own leadership I only heard the stuff that is on Strata East which I like much more than the thing led by Wilbur Ware. I can listen for hours to good drumming..... When was it recorded ? I saw Ricky Ford only twice in my live, it was with Mingus twice.....Ford, Walrath, Neloms, Richmond..... If I only would have noticed the name of that guy from the states, whom I heard once. I led a jam session at Zwe in Viena and a very very heavy guy came down into the club, having an alto with him. He was so heavy that Mingus or Fats Navarro would have been lightweight compared to him. I saw him with the alto and from the piano I waved him on stage and believe it or not.......: It was like if Jackie McLean would have been again among us. THAT ALTO SOUND, it was like if it was him, well there was also a bit of Dolphy and sure a lot of that unknown guy himself in it, but it was INCREDIBLE how great it was. I talked a litte to him later, but he was only "a tourist" as he stated and I never saw him again...... I would have liked to play with him very very very much.

About the two Rettenbach brothers. Hans is the one who recorded much. He was the oldest of the three Rettenbachers (Hans born 1939, Irmela born 1945 and Harry born 1947) . I knew the whole family, the three kids and their mother. Irmela was a singer and had sung with the first edition of the Vienna Art Orchestra. Later she was serving drinks at "Uzzi´s Einhorn" , a place where there was not live music but a meeting point for musicians. Irmela was like a big sister for me. We were all close then..... Aladár Pege: I heard him many times here in Viena. Well Viena and Budapesta anyway are something like twin cities, thinking about the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which is also my background. I mean I live in Viena and feel at home, and I can go to Budapesta and feel like home, it´s in ya blood. I remember Aladár Pege best for a gig with Sonny Stitt in 1980 at Porrhaus here in Viena.

oh, I personally have not heard about them, but sharp players are all around the world, great !