couw

is that Golden Earring or Golden Earrings not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to me

very nice, thanks maren

I wonder how much the actual military taking care of things after WWII has to do with this. I am not very well informed on this, I believe there were many British soldiers in Paris as well, but was the main contingent American? There were many Canadians in the Netherlands I know, and Russians in the former GDR (duh!) edit: I took the title of this thread to read "Why did so many american jazz artists end up in Paris?"

I have been meaning to check the IIO out myself, never got around to it. Did get a copy of Pino Minafra's Sud Ensemble, similar in its change from well structured heads and ensemble passages to free and loosely structured solos. Structured parts remind of marching band (banda) music, my memory tells me this also applies to the IIO but in addition they have some classically tinged, rather baroque themes in there as well(?). Interestingly, I have a GDR LP from 1984 that takes a very similar approach with Weill inspired heads and freeping solos. Of course the Breuker Kollektief played such stuff as well if they weren't too busy having destructive fun. It seems a "central European" thing of sorts. There are quite a number of Italians that play this kind of music, they all appear on the IIO now and then. Carlo Actis Dato also comes to mind. Will need to investigate this stuff.

As I wrote, it is hard to go wrong with Lateef's Savoy/OJC output, the ones I know are all excellent (still have to get some of those) My love for Richard Williams playing ballads draws me strongly towards some of the Impulse stuff though. And there are some very interesting inside/outside things to be found on the Impulse albums, which is what this thread is about of course...

And they have pretty postwomen instead of grumpy guys...

The German post service was even faster....

No way José! let's keep the variety up

On Atlantic, The Blue Yusef Lateef is a wonderful album with some otherwordly wackiness in between when Lateef sings some Japanese song. I enjoy it, but it seems something others tend to skip. Besides that, the title is very apt: there is a lot of deeply felt blues in various disguises. Very variated even with that restriction. Highly recommended, and probably what they call essential. On Impulse, besides the already mentioned Golden Flute album, currently only his Live at Pep's recordings are available I believe. Those are both stunning documents of the band with Richard Williams on trumpet. Williams does some beautiful ballads here. Lateef is his beautiful self. Hard to go wrong with these two as well I should say. Of course the Savoy and Prestige/New Jazz/OJC stuff that comes before is as pretty and as accessibly original as any of it. Hard to go wrong with those really. The Atlantic period is a bit of a mixed bag and then there are two on CTI that are more for the fans of fusion. Somewhere in the 80s Lateef played more of that new age/mood music than what you might consider jazz.

All of Lateef's Impulse output is very worthy of more attention I think. Maybe not underrated by the fans, but definitely underrated by the company it seems. Hopefully the release of the Golden Flute is a sign of more good things to come. Albert Mangelsdorff deserves some mention. Although recorded outside the timespan focused on here, his quintet albums Now Jazz Ramwong and (One) Tension ('63/'64) are very interesting outings that give you a European take on the inside/outside thing without relying on American role models too much.

Well Lon, I guess it's just that Jim's post above is a bit more interesting than one that merely goes "I dig it." And that's a pretty fatalistic attitude you got there. Just because it is doomed does not mean an attempt will not throw off something that is worthwhile. Like pretty interesting posts for example. And your "wisdom" with the difficult words in it is rather perverse as it itself factually lames free discourse on any of the integrational levels. You're probably just overstating your case when you allude to people wanting to standardise opinions on this board, so I will leave that and I will just emphasise that all I was saying is that I think it is healthy business to step back from ones obsessions once in a while and try and view it all with some distance. See, I'm not your next best despot, I'm just a normal guy with a lot of unhealthy obsessions, on which he tries to gain some perspective. And to put all this serious crap into perspective:

I should think we are saying very much the same thing. Just that I am right... :g

be aware that all that comes after 65 is usually a bit more "out there." I see you already have A Love Supreme so that's cool; the later stuff you list (anything from Transition down) is fabulous IMO, but you need to know that it in no way compares to Tenor Conclave or Lush Life, this is wild shit that puts A Love Supreme to shame most of the time; utterly enchanting, incredible stuff, but start with ONE and find your way around. Try some samples before buying I'd say. I personally have always liked Living Space a lot, a very fine session with its flaws and burps, but in the end very satisfying and rather accessible. Anyone of the Atlantic and Impulse albums that comes before A Love Supreme is worthy of a recommendation and I would doubt you'd be disappointed. I agree with 7/4: working your way forward is probably the best.

some request! (really, that pres was great!)

Actually, I like Jackie McLean a lot more than Coltrane. Of ANY period. But maybe that has something to do with my not thinking of Coltrane as a demi-God. (Or even a hemi-semi-demi-god.) I may well be in a minority on this, but in that case, I humbly submit that the majority is wrong. heheheh... that's cool, I like that. I have the same thing with Miles... (I know I'm in a minority position there though... )

no rules, just perspectives. It seems to be a tremendous task for some to get beyond the "yeah I dig it part" and point WHY they dig it, to compare the digging-ness to other music they know. No problem there, but you have to admit that an opinion with some background is more easily appreciated than a simple + or -. "I dig it" is a cool bedrock for anyone who knows me, for all of those who don't I'd rather provide some context. I think it helps. "I dig it" can easily become a mantra, mostly because most of us all dig "it" a lot. That this lot of "it" is usually miles apart and only covers part of the same territory is of interest I think. feepfeepfreeepfeep.

thank you brownie and I stand corrected.... -_- Never seen these over here in regular stores and e-shops need up to two weeks to get these. Don't know what's up. With Fol on alto, the second one does seems darn interesting.

Jackie did some very FINE recordings for Prestige, cool stuff to be sure, and darn interesting on their own and in relation to what came afterwards. But, they are simply not the utterness of why McLean became a voice to reckon with in jazz history at large. Rather similar to Trane's Prestige output really: nice for sure, darn interesting, probably as good as, or even better than, all the other blowing sessions that were released on Prestige at the time (McLean's included!), but not up to par with the Atlantic and the Impulse stuff. And face it, McLean does NOT occupy a seat anywhere near the demi-God throne that Coltrane's buttocks rest on in this world. Cool if he does for you, but there are other people out there and it IS possible to objectify things to a certain extent. This blahblah about personal tastes is very much okay and I dwindle in it for many posts myself, but I do also think that it is worth to try and find out about the "story" that most jazz fans share as a sort of pendant to the hero-centric epic that the Burns documentary blessed us with. So, in my utmost humble opinion, the BN recordings of McLean are more important than what came before or after. This does imply an interest into what became before or after and it does NOT put those recordings down. It puts the BN recordings UP, and that is something entirely different. By all means: buy all of the McLean Prestige disks you can find, they're good. Not splendid, but good like in okay. They are a vital piece of the story of McLean. As McLean is probably not in the UTTER upper echelons of the jazz artists of eternity (NOTE: I DIG JackieMac to death, but I do acknowledge that his place in the pantheon is not in the limelight but rather somewhere in the more dimly lit second rooms), they are not a vital piece of jazz history. And Simon: I do not think anyone stated that the Prestige stuff is not worth listening to. It is worth listening to, but worth is always defined within a context, and if you're talking Desert Island, these are low on the common list (Note: not personal list, but shared personal or common list). If you're talking McLean, they're on the list somewhere, but not at the top. And come on people, yes this is good music, but fegh look at *all* the good music that people scream about on this board! We need some perspective here that digs deeper than "I dig it." thankyouverymuch

intrigued, yes of course, but not to the point that I would start spending all my pocket money on it. There is far more intruigig stuff to be had. It is easy to like it all and play it all and to see merit in it all, it's when asked to prioritise or relativate that the problem begins. I did not say I would throw all the Prestige stuff out (did anyone on this thread?), but to me it serves more as a background to the to me far more interesting BN output than that it survives on its own merits when compared to other stuff of the time. It does well in that department as well, but not good enough to start throwing other stuff out to make room on the shelves for them. and of course that's only my opinion but is much righter... oh, and indeed his BN output is probably not the best thing since sliced bread, but as it seems, many view it as a more important piece of the jazz history puzzle than the Prestige stuff. I think it not a bad thing to leave the personal tastes behind sometimes and try and objectify it all a bit (only to dive headfirst into the self satisfaction of personal taste with more vigour for sure...)

brownie, isn't that the Newport album you refer to? I thought weizen maybe meant this one: I don't have either of these and would like to know myself.

it all depends on the book you're reading I think. If it's titled "Jackie Mackie," then by all means, the Prestige stuff belongs there. If, however, your interest is more in the book called "jazz," then I am afraid Jackie's Prestige chapters are only of marginal interest, and one or two sips will suffice to know where McLean came from and what was there that lead to the much more important BN output. Like everything else, it's all a matter of scale and perspective.

fun makes life last longer

you may consider bringing one then

yes, it was. I have noticed myself that music can be acquired faster than it can be taken in. A purchase may be one click and second away, but to get acquainted with the music takes several spins and hours.