Milestones

Or maybe it is the burden of creativity. Every genre or art form seems to essentially reach its limit, then the artists go back and re-explore. At best, the new stuff can offer micro-creativity. At this stage, if you are going to be really innovative in jazz, it will likely turn into something that wouldn't be jazz anymore. Or so it seems to me. Then again, jazz did accept (with reluctance by many) the fusion of Miles, McLaughlin, Coryell, Weather Report, etc. But has then there been a true shift/turning point in jazz since? Some would say Wynton and the Young Lions, but you have to say that what they did was simply re-explore the past.

All music has roots and peak periods and great compositions. Doesn't this explain the continued relevance of Bach, Mozart, Chuck Berry, The Beatles, Ellington, Monk, etc etc etc?

Yes, they definitely they wanted to do things differently--that's why they were pioneers. And yet I have to say I've been surprised by how well Coryell, for instance, can play pieces like "Sophisticated Lady," "Body and Soul," and "Theme for Ernie."

We've largely gotten away from McLaughlin on this thread. I can only say he was the second jazz guy I ever got into (after Miles), and he blew me away then--and still does now. A player who is innovative and incredibly eclectic. A musician who has astonished me, a musician who has moved me. Is every project fabulous? Of course not. Personally I was not much into Heart of Things. But I sure do like his stuff with 4th Dimension--his best ever echo of Mahavishnu.

Of those records, I know Secret Story the best. Not that many vocals, and certainly not very similar to the stuff on Stern's Voices.

Funny thing is that while I like most everything by Pat Metheney, some I like more than others--and I was not big on the vocal stuff. I'm not even sure which albums prominently feature this.

I have to say, "Voices" just seems as good as it gets when it comes to guitar and wordless vocals.

Honestly, I'm surprised to find a couple of fans of his trumpet playing. I can deal with it, to be sure, but the signature sound is the alto. The man has created some great music. When I first read about him (and had not yet heard him), I thought he would be rather inaccessible. But that is not that case at all. He is very engaging on just about everything, even on Free Jazz (the record).

I received an email suggesting that the sign no longer requires membership, at least if you've been a previous member.

Wow, this thing is going to hit 200 posts yet, and of course at this point it is barely touching on Kenny Burrell. Ah, there's always that "art" and "commerce" debate, but let's not forget that many fine musicians spent a lot of hours as session men (from Clark Terry to Michael Brecker; KB for that matter), and they have not suffered for it. You do some things (usually low visibility) to get some bucks to pay some bills, yet you still have the time and energy for truly creative work. The remarks about the ghetto strike me as very odd. Did Miles Davis grow up in the ghetto? Plus there's the fact that jazz has nearly always had a predominantly white audience. Do we currently have less African-Americans playing jazz? It sure seems that way, but maybe it's something similar to fewer African-American's playing baseball. And anyway can we say that musicians such as these don't offer creativity and pleasure: Joe Lovano, Bill Frisell, Mike Brecker, Charlie Haden, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Stan Getz, Pat Metheny (ad infinitum).

Phases, you know. I used to a pretty big movie buff, but now I hardly watch them, either at the theater or at home. I used to think of nothing of reading a 600-page novel. Now I prefer to stick to 200 or 250 pages; or better yet, novellas and short stories.

Oh, I very much enjoy JSngry's posts. But with over 43,000 over them, I won't claim that I will read them all.

OK, so let me speak now as someone who has written 30+ short stories and three novels--not that you will find them at your local Barnes & Noble. I am also a composition teacher (at a community college), so what I do is teach the technique of sentences, paragraphs, entire essays. No, I don't know (firsthand) the techniques of jazz or music in general, but they are there...beyond question. Without it, you are not a musician. Without a serious amount of it, you are strictly an amateur. Even my ears can hear the unorthodox techniques of musicians like Monk, and I can hear the considerable technique of Wes Montgomery(also recognizing how easy he makes it sound).

You turn some interesting metaphors, JSngy.

Much is made of technique in jazz, and maybe that's why it's not a very popular music...all told. I do admire technique sometimes (it's really a "sense" thing for my non-musician ears), but certainly it's not ALL about technique. And I'm sure technique comes into play with ballads; just because the tempo is slower, that doesn't mean it's easier to play. Anyway, my point is that we should be more concerned about what a player CHOOSES to play, rather than what he/she CAN play. Or not. If your vision of music is all about technique, then that has to be the central focus.

As creator of the thread, I can only say I never expected it to hit 122 posts! Any thoughts on Kenny's work with Coleman Hawkins? There was "Soul," and also "Bluesy Burrell (a bit less successful and Hawk was not on all the tracks). Wasn't there one more?

True, a bit overplayed, though I did (and still do) like Jay Hoggard's version a lot. Burrell did not play on it, though the two did hook up on what I regard as a fine record: "Guiding Spirit."

I like Togethering quite a bit, though I thought it would be better. I really liked the two tunes by Kenny and Grover on the Blue Note re-launch (One Night with Blue Note): "Summertime" and "I'm so Glad There is You." While Togethering didn't quite reach that level, it's certainly listenable.

I pretty much liked earlier versions of the Burton/Corea duo, but now it doesn't seem to do much for me. Not sure why that is. On the new record, I like their take on "Eleanor Rigby, and I like Monk's "Light Blue." Otherwise, nothing stands out at all.

There's definitely some awesome chemistry between Chick and the great Roy Haynes. Chick has put out comparatively few trio dates (at least the more official ones), but when he has Roy Haynes is usually behind the kit. The tribute to Monk on "Trio Music" is simply superb.

I think I have defined joy too narrowly. There has been an impressive response to this topic, and amazing variety on the thread--in terms of the breadth of artists and so many types of musical joy. I will say that fun or humor are a particular branch of joy, and that joy itself comes in many shades. And clearly many of find particular musicians as exemplars of joy--that their essence is joyful. For me, Cannonball would be one. So would Dizzy, so would Satchmo, so would Horace Silver. But the main purpose of the thread was/is to name individual pieces that are simply bursting with joy.

You're right...if you aren't hearing the joy in Roland Kirk, you just aren't alive.

I'm sure most would agree that one of the great achievements in music is pure joy. It is also perhaps relatively rare, at least at the highest level. Jazz can be snappy, bouncy, and exciting--but how often is it totally exhilarating? What I mean is that it can instantly lift your spirits, when you are in an utterly crappy mood, within seconds. The argument has been made that jazz was a happier music in its earlier days. To get that sense of elation, put on Louis Armstrong or Basie (especially with Jimmy Rushing) or Woody Herman's "Caldonia." In the bebop era, naturally you have to go with Dizzy; few musicians have ever been so joyful, though of course it is just one of his moods (and all the greats have several moods). Sonny Rollins...the calpyso music...I would especially say "Duke of Iron." In our own days, it's not so obvious. Yes, it's there in a subtle way in a lot of musicians. But what's there that makes you jump out of your seat? Two I can think of "Mister Pitiful" by Dave Douglas and "Cameroon" by Mike Stern and Richard Bona. Your comments please.

Seriously, are some going to argue that Chick is NOT an amazingly eclectic musician and creative force? Since he clearly is that, one needs a lot of records by him.

Stern is getting pretty old for a long-haired metal guitarist, as some like to think of him. Frisell, Scofield, and Metheny are no youngsters either. JETman, agreed--that first RTF is indeed a classic and contains not one bit of bombast.