Late

I've owned this album for about ten years (— not that long, I know). I used to think it was "interesting" and of "historical importance," which really means that I wasn't listening close enough. I've listened, this week, at least twelve times to this album. Now I'm starting to think it's a great album. I still have a few reservations, but they'll probably diminish with closer listening. Some questions/points of discussion to start: • First off, what do you think? Do you think, in total, it works? What about the choice of soloists? (I think Clifford Jordan is near perfect here.) • Bob Thiele didn't use Rudy for this record — maybe because of the size of the choir? Less than a year later, however, Rudy seemed equipped to handle the band + choir for Donald Byrd's A New Perspective, so maybe not? • Thiele used George Piros as the recording engineer. Piros's work was, at the time, largely in the classical world, namely for Mercury. It makes sense that Thiele would look to an engineer with experience with large groups, but — when you listen to the record — it doesn't sound like Piros knew exactly what to do with Roach's kit. It's often recessed, which gives it that "hall" sound typical of large orchestral recordings. But maybe that was what Roach wanted. It certainly wasn't Rudy's approach. • In the liner notes, Rudy Van Gelder is listed as "re-recording" and "remastering" engineer. Maybe some of you in the sound engineering business can enlighten me. Why would Van Gelder have to re-record? What does that even mean? And why the 1962 remastering? Was Thiele not happy with Piros's work, or was this standard procedure? • Cuscuna, in the original U.S. compact disc notes, mentions that this session was difficult, which I'm reading as "expensive." Here's what Cuscuna writes: "Max Roach's experiment, using writing for trained voices and thoroughly integrating their parts into a jazz ensemble, was a unique and difficult project. "Living Room" and "It's Time" were attempted at three unsuccessful sessions (Jan. 25, Jan. 31, and Feb. 1, 1962) before this album was recorded at three more sessions (Feb. 15, Feb. 26, and Feb. 27, 1962). Incidentally, a seventh piece — "Prelude" — was done at the final date, but no tape of that master has survived." • So, SIX sessions were needed for this project to become an actual record. I can't imagine that Thiele was thrilled with that. I also have to wonder — could this be why Roach stopped recording for Impulse? In the liner notes, the photo of Thiele and Roach together — well, neither look particularly happy (but maybe they're just concentrating on the playback). • Coleridge Perkinson. More needs to be said/written about this guy. Please post what you know. For 1962, this album seems fairly ahead of its time. Maybe the time for "It's Time" is now, as perhaps it wasn't then. Share your thoughts/observations!

I don't know what the deal is with the two different covers. Budget reasons? So to not derail this thread, and to (hopefully) get more input, I'm going to start a new thread on this album. I have some questions about it, mainly re. Piros, Thiele, Van Gelder, etc.

Just got done listening to this disc in total. What a fine, fine record. I have the old 20-bit digipack edition (Erik Labson?), and it doesn't sound very good. I hope this new Japanese edition can provide more depth and soundstage placement than the edition I own. You can tell it was well-recorded (a ton of room sound!), but ... well, we'll see. I wish Max had recorded more than twice for Impulse!

Along similar lines, as Palle Mikkelborg is in the band, is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_1g5z6lhDc

Hmm. According to an All About Jazz review, there really is no soundtrack in this box set, save one track: Well that sucks. I wanted to hear the Shafi Hadi tracks.

Glad these are finally seeing the light of day. Some background information: • UCCI 9245 - San Ship Originally titled "San Juan Nepomuceno" in honor of the 18th century Spanish war ship (as Coltrane was a Battle of Trafalgar enthusiast), Bob Thiele later removed the reference, and opted for the generic "Ship." Coltrane politely insisted that at least the formal "San" remain. • UCCI 9247 - Homme Little known fact: Coltrane's popularity during the years 1965-67 was such that Impulse! corporate suits decided to cross-market fragrances with Coltrane's name attached. Homme was to be the first cologne bearing Coltrane's name and endorsement. When Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner discovered that no fragrances were being developed to promote their own personal brands, they left the band. Coltrane was shocked and depressed, and as a result cancelled his end of the product contract. Though the first 50 copies of Homme came with scratch-and-sniff samples, the fragrance was never officially released. • UCCI 9260 - Illuminating Nation! Jimmy Garrison was a longtime Nikola Tesla admirer. Wireless energy was certainly the way of the future, and with a wireless bass amp, Garrison might finally be heard in ensemble with Coltrane's band. • UCCI 9273 - Three Four Shepp Turns out that Marion Brown had never heard of Sam Shepard. Rather, the album is a discreet reference to Archie's love of Strauss. • UCCI 9280 - New Glass Ayler was one of the first to speak highly of the then little-known composer he called simply "Phil."

Yes — thanks for sharing your research. Weird that the SHM remasters weren't used for the latest "low-priced" editions. I did a Google Translate search at Universal Japan's site a while ago, and remember reading (re. the Blue Note SHM-CDs) the phrase "final chapter" in regard to this fifth batch. I hope that doesn't mean this series is over! Even if it is, they picked some great titles. (Though Cecil was snubbed.)

I hadn't heard Domnerus kill it like that before. Really nice. Sounds like he'd been listening to Charlie Mariano. The whole proceeding, along similar lines, feels inspired by Papa Mingus. The guys are so casual between tracks, and then when they solo ... ! Bengt even takes to bashing the keys with the fall board.

Day-amn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mElxLqKcuzA

Particularly nice to see Henderson in action in 1964. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb-a6eRiI_0

Thanks for the reminder. Putting that one in the queue for tomorrow.

Ditto that. Jeff, are you listening to the McKinney's disc on Frog? Gonna have to dig out my copy now.

I hope this new batch uses those SHM remasters. The SHM of Sun Ship is much, much finer (sonically) than the U.S. (complete) edition, in my opinion. The Japanese SHM remaster was somehow able to reduce/remove a lot of the digital glare present in the U.S. edition. The Japanese edition, of course, doesn't have all the extras, but it does — importantly — restore the Ed Michel edits. Those edits are essential (and musical) for people who grew up with that album on vinyl. (The edits, by the way, are the opposite of, say, a Dick Bock edit. They consist mainly of trimming sloppy Elvin Jones endings on certain tracks.) For those who haven't heard them yet, do not sleep on the two Max Roach titles! If you like Andrew Hill's Lift Every Voice, then you'll probably like It's Time. I agree with Ubu — I would love to have seen, say, Jewels of Thought (Sanders) and/or Streams (Rivers). I can't even remember when Sam Rivers (on Impulse!) was last reissued in Japan, or anywhere. Coltrane, Shepp, Ayler — they get the love, and Sam keeps waiting.

50 titles total. Good to see Marion Brown's ode to the then 23 year-old Sam Shepard — Three For Sheppard — see reissue again. Now we all get to figure out which remasters the Japanese used this time around. Fun!

It appears that the "Shadows" soundtrack is available digitally now. (There's probably a Moochin' About thread somewhere here.) Curtis Porter Anyone here have the box set? How is it?

I've never heard the Santa Cruz set. At last, I can purchase a reissue I haven't already heard!

I don't. For that title, I have the 24-bit mini-LP edition. Sounds pretty good. (By the way, note to the forum: I need to correct myself. "The Fifth of Beethoven" = "Little Symphony." Not as I stated above.) Bottom line — I think we all love Ornette's Atlantic work (well, mostly!), and this 2015 reissued box set is a good thing. How we accumulate each title, in the end, doesn't of course really matter. We'll all find an edition we're happy with. Listening is what counts! Those recordings continue to be fresh to this day. Damn that warehouse fire!

Well that's not a good sign ... That SHM-CD is worth owning. I almost didn't purchase it, but reviews here swayed me.

You'll want those tracks, though a few are actually different takes of compositions you'll already know, while given a different title. Going by memory, for example: • "The Tribes of New York" = "Little Symphony" There are one or two others like this. Somebody will jump in with corrections. "I Heard It Over The Radio" and "Mr. and Mrs. People" are two of the most beautiful tracks in the box, in my opinion. When I first heard them (now twenty years ago, egad), I was surprised that they were passed over in favor of other tracks for album inclusion. I'd actually have to say that this is true. I get what you're saying about the pumped up quality of a lot of these Japanese Atlantic remasters — I immediately sold off a number of them upon hearing them. Despite this, the Ornette titles actually sound good, at least to me. There's more presence, on my system, than on the old 1993 remastered set, which, as Scott mentions, is pretty darn good to begin with. I did sell my box set, however, after purchasing most of the Japanese titles. I like to listen to the Atlantic sessions in album order rather than chronological order, and with what I consider better sound, I parted with the box set (even though I had to save files of the songs Xybert mentioned). I haven't heard the Grundman SACD. I'd like to. For that title, I have the old Japanese 20-bit AMCY remaster, which sounds good, and has a fair amount of transparency, though I'm sure the Grundman edition is superior. For lovers of This Is Our Music, take note — there is actually a Japanese SHM-CD remaster of this title out there. It's superior, sonically, to the recent Japanese 24-bit remaster (well, I think it is), to the box set, and to the Sepia Tone reissue. Its catalog # is: WQCP 1082. It seems to have been reissued with little fanfare (2011), and I stumbled upon it by accident. One catch — infuriatingly, the cover art (so beautiful and iconic) was botched. It's still the same cover, but the colors are faded and blurred. The disc itself, and the transfer that resides in it, is however amazing. "Lifelike" would be the first word I'd use.

Released this week. Tracklist. I'm new to Johnny Adams, and this has been an excellent introduction. Makes me want to check out some of Ace's New Orleans Soul comps. Any recommendations along those lines, comp or single artist?

You're right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMWuzYV8chg

Do not miss this one. Two (bass and Bb) clarinet front line — Marty Ehrlich and Ben Goldberg. Pianoless quartet. Check out sound samples here. Denis Colin recorded Trois in 1992. Fascinating trio recording of: • bass clarinet • cello • zarb & berimbau

Spendy, but tempting.

Oops — I was thinking of Jeru — that's the one with the conga. What Is There To Say? is excellent, though I could do without another version of "My Funny Valentine."