JSngry

Details, please!

Competitive is one thing, professional is another. He wasn't contracted to play the gig wit that group and was merely a stand-in for Bird until Bird arrived. It would have been unprofessional to remain, as this was a concert, not a jam session. I've no doubt that he wanted to stay and play. This was music that he had been actively involved in, and he played it very well. I'm sure that, based on what I know about him, that he was probably chomping at the bit to hamg around and blow, especially since by June of 1945, he might well have been feeling the first gusts of the draft, and it no doubt didn't sit well woth him. But that would not be professional behavior in this context. In June of 1945, Don Byas was still a player with a name on the New York scene. To cause a disruption at a Town Hall concert would not be a good career move, and I'm pretty sure that he was smart enough to realize that. Think about it - here's Don Byas, one of the most competitive and proud men in the hstory of the music, a man whose resolute determination to position himself as a "modern" tenor man, no matter what, was perhaps his defining characteristic, all of a sudden being so overcome by feelings of inadequacy in a concert of music which he was intimately familiar with that he turned tail and ran out. That just doesn't make sense.

Here's to life.

Happy Birsthday. Too bad you're retired. Guess you can't take those gis, eh?

The Birth of Soul box only included Charles' R&B sides, the new box will include everything he recorded for Atlantic, such as the jazz sides. ← Well, not everything. Ray returned to the lable for four albums in the 1970s. I have the first three. They're all a mixed bag, but when they're good, they're very good. The first one, True To Life, is easily the strongest (there's a version of "How Long Has This Been Going On" on there that is Sesert Island Material). The following two are much more variable/erratic, and by the tiem the fourth one came out, I decided to pass.

In order: Yes. Very good stuff, as you note. The whole Unheard Music Series is worth a checkout. Yes, on Black Saint & Moers for sure, and maybe some indie labels as well. I'm not sure about the details of the latter. Charles Bobo Shaw & Luther Thomas showed up in various places, together and seperately, over the course of the 70s on albums by fellow St. Louis musicians like Oliver Lake & Lester Bowie. It's the legacy of BAG.

Geez, I just figured he left because the guy he was filling in for showed up.

5 - yeah, only one's from a player's perspective & the other from a listening one. But same thing in the end. 6 = Both 7 - well, this listener does, unless there's extenuating circumsatnces. And I didn't get that from this piece. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood. It happens. 8 - Ok, that is Bartx then. I've heard it before, somewhere. Nice.

So that's not Wardell on #13? Damn.

Have only had one listen to this disc, and it was highly unfocused. So, here comes an almost blind response. Thanks and disclaimers yet again blahblahblah... TRACK ONE - Well played, but I don't get the point. TRACK TWO - A Tony trio, obviously (I hope!), and a stylistic continuation of sorts of some of the material from Disc One. That material, though, was looking into something maybe unknown, and this is kinda looking back at what's already become well known. Makes for a less riveting experience, at least for me. Still, it's fine playing, and Tony, well, hey - TONY! TRACK THREE - Well now! I like the bottom more than the top. Not much into this type of tenor playing. I thnk I hear Lovano as the second tenorist. The first tenorist does it better for me, if only slightly. Nice arrangement, and you can dance to it. Seems like it's THIS ONE. This guy's been making some pretty interesting records the last few years, and if I'm not thrilled by this cut, that's not to say that I find it an exercise in futility (like TrackOne). Not at all. TRACK FOUR - Nice tune, nice arrangement, kinda reminiscent of Cedar Walton. Pianist (Cedar?) does it for me significantly more than any of the horns. Is that Billy on drums? Would've liked to hear this tune with less timid horn players. It's a good'un! TRACK FIVE - Marimba! Only jazz marimba I can readily think of is Hutch, and this might be him, but I hope not - the rhythm section is not at all organic. Sounds like they're playing forgone conclusions and forcing the soloist to go along with them. I don't get a sense of "discovery" out of this, more like a sense of reitereration. Superbly played, though, can't ever knock that. TRACK SIX - Nicely wack "Moon" variant. Bennie Wallace? Almost sounds like David Murray, but this cat's got a better grip of the bop lexicon that he's fucking with. Either that, or else Murray's finally gotten it all the way together that way. Second tenor player, eh...more of that "New York Tenor" stuff. Not my bag, I'm afraid. Interesting guitarist. Earlier Scofield? No real clue on this one, but it's fun. TRACK SEVEN - Sure sounds like Billy's snare and bass drum (at least on these headphones...), even if they do have him mixed waaaaaaaay low. Pretty interesting changes, goes along and tells a story. Pianist doesn't leave much, if any, space in his playing (actually, I've not heard any so far!), but maybe that's his story, ya'know? Still, with no space, it doesn't give you any room to think, and since it's not one of those ball-grabbing pieces of gottagetthisoutnoworelse energy things like Bud or Cecil, the end result is less than it could/should have been. Piano players need to breathe too! TRACK EIGHT - A friend in England recently sent me this, I think. Haven't listened to it enough to really absorb it, so I could be wrong. Some fairly recent South African stuff, right? If that's not it, I'll have a go at Gary Bartz playing something very similar. Nice tune, nice rhythms. I like it. TRACK NINE - Toots and violin? A tonal accent that I don't reflexively respond to, but these cats is playin', fersure. Pretty nice, but I have to say that these modern recordings lack the visceral punch of the older material found on Disc One. Not the music always, just the recordings themselves. Drummers in particular get pulled back in the mix too damn much! Now, if this is Toots, I have to saythat I often find his playing to have a bit too much "smiling gnome" quality to it for my taste. But this is fine! No idea as to who the violinist might be, but he/she is fine as well. And dmaned if THIS drummer doesn't sound a bit like Billy as well. I must need new headphones... TRACK TEN - Ned Goold? Somebody not unfamiliar with 60's Sonny, that much is certain. Nope, that's not Goold, although some of the concepts are similar. I'd liek to hear an entire album by this player to get a better grip on who they are and what their story is. This snippet is in the least bit not off-putting. TRACK ELEVEN - Nice, but again, I feel like I'm not hearing anything particularly in the moment out of the horns (less so the alto, though). But I also think that these players might have a different agenda than that, because the Latin/Jszz fusion heard here seems pretty natural to me. So, different backgrounds, differnt agendas, differnt type music. And this is a pretty appealing cut from that perspective. TRACK TWELVE - Now THIS sounds like David Murray! And Don Pullen! Finally - something on this disc I recognize! And own! A DARN FINE RECORD!!!! TRACK THIRTEEN - Yeah. What a heartbreaker this is (and with good reason). This is a player I continue to explore slowly but consistently (not unlike how his playing unfolds), and time makes the ones I first got into, like this one, rich beyond belief. One of this tenor player's finest moments as well. One of the better records of the 1980s, imo, and quite possibly a truly great one. So far, it seems like it more and more. Ok, that's it. Not as much here that struck my fancy as one Disc One, but the LAtin/South African(?) cuts will get relistens, if only because in those musics, the concpets of "top" and "bottom" are differnt than in "regular" jazz, and I hear a lot in them that I like in places other than the top. Otherwise, an interesting trip, to be sure, and many of the piecces that I didn't care for overall still had elements which were attention-getting and pleasurable. Thanks for the music!

Jack's nailing of #16 has me wanting to know A) how much more writing Sauter did for Shaw? B)What year was this? C)Who was the guitarist? and D)Where can I get this? I'll wait for the answer thread, of course, but please include this information!

Sorry I'm late getting in. Hands on my time, as it were, but it's been on my mind. Have had a chance to give the disc one or two semi-good listenings and a few casual ones, but no in-depth listens until now. A very enjoyable compilation - some familiar voices in unfamiliar (or vaguely familiar) settings. Neat stuff! The usual thanks and disclaimers are firmly in place, as always. TRACK ONE - Can't say with any certainty, but the trombonist's vibrato and phrasing remind of Lawrence Brown at times, and the growl trumpet sure could be early Cootie (or maybe even Miley). Less sure about the clarinetist. Not a full big band, obviously, so my guess is some item of Ellingtonia. Wish I knew more of this period and these type items. Some day...Killer groove, though, with the saxes on the upbeats presaging the faster shuffles of Prima/Butera. It ROCKS! Very enjoyable, and they pack a lot of "events" into a mere 2:50. Not even pop records are that short anymore! TRACK TWO - Freakin' beautiful tune. Recognized KD, Pepper, & Billy. Recognized the tenorist's vocabulary but not tone, so started doing an AMG search and guessed right the first time. Not a common occurance I assure you! But appropriate, given the TITLE of this album. The opening of the piano solo then fell into place as a stylistic offshoot of the one this same player offered on a big BN hit record. Lovely cut, and an album I've slept on over the years. Groovy, especially hearing that cat on tenor. Thanks for the wakeup call! TRACK THREE - Sounds very familiar...Roy on drums? Maybe not...Recording quality sounds "European" to me...Sounds too familiar, but damn if i can pin it down right now. Mid/late 60s, kind of a "Now He Sings..." vibe is spots, but only in spots. Oh well... Very hip, and I'm gonna kick myself when I find out who it is. TRACK FOUR - Some OP thing? That guitarist is WACK! I hear a Django influence... Tiny Grimes? (how's that for a non-sequiter?) No idea, very much of its time, but in a good way. TRACK FIVE - Almost sounds like it could be from the same session as Track 3, only with horns added...Could be Charles Davis on bari, tone suggests him, but not the intonation. Trumpet suggests Donald Byrd, but not totally. Tenor sounds like either Tubby Hayes or Ronny Scott, with a moment of Clifford Jordan at the end of the solo... Again, very nice stuff. No bullshit here! TRACK SIX - Hmmmm...I get visions of Danny Kaye for some reason, playing an eccentric pianist who gets a chance to sit in with a name band, and then doing his schtick from there, replete with cutesy faces and creepy body language. Not necessarily the most pleasant of images... Very nice lead alto work, though, sounds like Marshall Royal. Hell, the whole sax section sounds great. Sounds like a Swing band flirting with some very early "modern" concpets. But the flirting is for naught, I'm afraid. TRACK SEVEN - at last, a Van Gelder recording! Dameron-esque, fersure. Donald Byrd on trumpet, I believe, sounding a bit fatigued, but with good ideas. Now hey, THAT'S Sam Rivers, unmistakably, and that would make this a cut from THIS bad boy! Got it, have listened to it a few times, but not enough for the material to be instantly recognizable. Gotta love this one. Tadd's stuff was always so nice. TRACK EIGHT - No Danny Kaye here! That drummer's kickin', jack! Pianist plays the kind of games that Hines plays. Can't make an educated guess, unfortunately, other than to say that this is some BAAAAAADDDD shit! Great writing (especially towards the end. that's some hip shit right there), great playing, swings like a mofo, totally natural, not in the least bit forced. YEAH! TRACK NINE - singing vibist, must(?) be Dave Pike. Don't know anything by him other than The Doors of Perception. Not much to this one, just a vamp, but hey, it works. And it speeds up. A lot of the lines remind me a lot of Walt Dickerson, which is not what I would associate with the "image" I have of Dave Pike. Sounds like it might be a Rudy Recording also, and ditto. So maybe it's not Dave Pike. Maybe it's Walt Dicekrson. But I've never heard Dickerson sing while he plays. Ok, I'm curious. let me hunt. a-HA!!! Do second guesses count? What a great player! (soemthing else I don't readily associate with Dave Pike!) TRACK TEN - Sax Section! "Four Half-Brothers" or some such, if you know what I mean. At first I thought the bari was Challoff from his later years, but I don't know of him doing a date like this with alto. Too boppy to be Mulligan (but maybe not, becasue the boppishness is short-lived...). This kind of alto playing is good for me in small doses, and the size of this one is just about right. TAKEABREATHORDOSOMETHINGTOPUTSOMESPACEINYERLINESFERCRISSAKES! Digging the drummer and pianist the most. The drummer sounds like a ringer, if you know what I mean. Sounds like an interesting enough date. TRACK ELEVEN - Nice. Very nice. Tightly casual. Blue Mitchell? The backing trio is everything you could ask for for this type thing. The bass is on a different channel than most of the other pieces so far, and it's discombobulating me! (listening on headphones right now...) Wynton Kelly, I think, and PC. Don't know, but this is as organic as this type thing gets. TRACK TWELVE - YEAH! It's still changes, it's still bop, and it's still in time, but it's not rigid and hung up in some perverse repressive time warp prison. Absofukkinlutely beautiful. Them altoists sound familiar, might be Lasha & Simmons, but don't hold me to that. If this is off Firebirds, it might be just the nudge I need to get of my duff and finally get it. No good reason not to have it, especially after all these years of knowing that I should have it. TRACK THIRTEEN - Basie, I hope. Wardell, I hope. A second tenor, I hope. Not wholy "Wholly Cats", I hope. I much dig Wardell. the other tenor is familiar and cool as well, but I much dig Wardell. Always. TRACK FOURTEEN - Another one of those "Monk In The Sunshine" type things. This is a good'un, pastiche piano solo and all. I like the changes of the bridge. Like to see how the chart was written for the last four of that bridge. Sounds like two bars of 3, a bar of 2, then two of 4. Still sixteen beats, but... TRACK FIFTEEN - 'Nuff said! Except that there's not enough Ernie Henry on record. TRACK SIXTEEN - Sounds like a Ralph Burns piece for the First Herd, but not one that I know (but should). Very nice, if a little fussy and/or cutesy here and there. Then again, the writing sounds like it could be the work Eddie Sauter. But the use of electric guitar as a melodic instrument (Billy Bauer?) and the clarinetist's tone shift it to Herman for me, and therefore Burns. At the end of the day, it's one for the dance book, but hell, who says you can't dance to advanced writing? And this is pretty advanced writing in more than a few spots. Nice! TRACK SEVENTEEN - another "European" sounding recording. Somebody who's been checking out Booker on tenor. Sounds like Woody Shaw on trumpet. Is this one of the Nathan Davis/Shaw things? Not the one w/Larry Yooung on piano, but the other one? Very nice. Nathan Davis was sure playing! TRACK EIGHTEEN - Sounds like something by Jaki Byard or Dave Burrell. Oh yeah, it's this. Missed out on this one until just a few years ago. My loss. The pianist/drummer collaboration would go on to yield marvellous results in the folowing decade. Interesting to hear them doing a precursor to it in 1966. Well, wow. Eighteen tracks, that's a lot! And other than #6, none that I'd mind hearing from here on out. Cool!

I'm a sucker for public displays of affection. Gets me in touch with my feminine side.

Guess you could call it "Prose-ac",eh? (sorry.....)

Marvin was a Coke man, actually...

I like Whitman too. Good candy. Life's too short not to eat some.

Don Byas out "out of his idiom" in June of 1945? Hmmm..........

Ted Curson - Urge (Fontana), a smoking 1966 quartet date w/Booker Ervin at his most startling, Jimmy Woode, and Edgar Bateman. Heard it for the first time last night, and whew... Kinda reminds me of Complete Communion and Mingus occupying the same space simultaneously. Needs to be out on CD.

No, they were from Kansas City. The got that name because they squeaked whenever they ate the chicken that they ran over.

In the company of Bobby Keys, yes. Ernie Watts, eh....six of one, apples and oranges of the other. But another "Rolling Stones saxophonist" was Sonny Rollins, so....

Francy Boland was one interesting writer! R.I.P. and thanks for the enduring legacy.

As is the custome to say in these type threads, I hope she's ok.

That Joe Klopus needs to get a grip.

I've got stories to tell about this, good stories, freaking AMAZING stories , but not wanting to hijack Allen's thread, I'll save them for another time.

Well, ok. I'm 49+, have worked at the same company for over 6 years (only 2.5 full-time, though), and these people are peridocally recruiting me for management positions, even after I've let them know in no uncertain terms that I'm a musician who needs a straight job right now, not a musician lokking for a career change. So I've not personally been a victim of corporate age discrimination. But I will say this - there's definitely a preference for younger folks when it comes to recruting for management positions. "They" like to get'em young and hungry, when they've not yet had time to find a sense of inner validation. The type they're looking for is the type who haven't yet figured out that they're being pimped big time, that this game is all about bait and switch, that you'll get used (and used well) up to the point where somebody decides that you've gone as far as you're gonna go and that it's time to get some new blood. Somebody higher up decides that they've seen all you got to give,and you go from Favorite Son/Daughter to Yesterday's News, and you become shamelessly expendable, often without warning. I've seen this happen repeatedly over the years, and not just in this company. It's just the way of the Corporate World. Lives/minds/souls quite often get seriously fucked up by this shit, because you get a young, idealisitic soul without too much sense of inner identity, you treat them like "gold", pump'em full of promises and flattery (AWARDS! BONUSES! TRAVEL! MEETING THE CEO!), deliver on those promises for years, and before too long, these folks begin to believe that they're "special", that "the company" really cares about them, and all that bullshit. It's pimping, pure and simple, because it's all about mindfucking innocents, exploiting their psychological weaknesses (if not realizing that your own intrinsic worth offers you more validation than any "job" could isn't a weakness, then I don't know what is...) to use them up until it's time to throw them away. A few survive well, but only a few. The rest either go nuts (seen it more than once) or plateau and stick around, becoming Corporate Barflys - dark, bitter souls with grudges against everything and everybody, people who want out but are too empty inside to muster the resources to get out (seen it more than once as well). That's what happens when you sell your soul to the Company Sto' - you become the Company Ho'. And how many ho's end up living happily ever after? So yeah, they like 'em young. All pimps do. Are you sure you want to get in on this action, Allen?