JSngry

What happened to the Love & Peace Jsngry? 'C'mon man, let's deal with reality! You can't expect a kid listening to Flock Of Seagulls or Led Zep to Soulive to Song For My Father, ect, ect to jump right into Dial-era Bird and dig that scratchy, lame audio. Love & Peace eventually collides with Reality, and choices eventually have to be made.

Started "playing" jazz as a freshman in high school, thanks to an active & energetic (if totally educationless in matters such as theory) "stage band" program. My interest in the music both as player & listener was both initially triggered and nurtured in that setting. The program had been ran by former journeyman type big-band trumpeter who had left the year before I got there, and his successor was a veteran local "club date" guy who had spent time out in L.A. in the 50s. Between the program & the then-exploding "jazz-rock" thing (ranging from electric Miles to Chicago/BS&T/etc.) it was a good time to get interested, as there were both outlets & similarly inclined peers. Hearing Bird, didn't make me want to play the music. I was already wanting that. What it did do was to wake me up that there was a level of jazz that was waaaaaay beyond most of what I had been into. Even if I had no idea as to the specifics of how it was made, I knew enough (and could feel enough) to know that this was something altogether different. The only things that had hit me this hard then were Trane's Transition, Ornette's Free Jazz & Blakey's Indestructable. So no, it didn't "set me on the path", so to speak, but it certainly cleared & clarified the path that was already beginning to form. In retrospect, yeah, it probably changed my life. I still got that Everest LP, btw. Still play it, and still recommend it to those so inclined. Helluva side.

In what - the "songs" or the playing? The songs and Symphony Sid. Well, that's the essence of the music right there....

So what do you like best - music or time frames? Sorry, that's a Nessa in abstentia question I know, but knowing what you do like, I can only say that it's all there in Bird, and in a form that's a lot more "organic" than what was to follow. Not to dismiss or imply any belittlement of what came after, it's some of my favorite music too, but I'm of the mind that an appreciation of the offshoots without an appreciation of the grandeur of the source is kind of a "tourist-y" thing to do. Which is fine if being a tourist is what makes you happy. No shame there, a pefectly wonderful life can be had. Just know it for what it is, and know where to look for something else if and when the gnawing feeling that "something's missing" should ever arise.

In what - the "songs" or the playing?

First Bird I heard was when I was 15 or 16. This one, purchased from a Treasure City cutout bin for $1.99: Come to find out years later that it was a combination of the Birdland date w/Fats, Bud & Blakey mixed in w/a few Royal Roost airshots w/KD, Haig, etc, but no matter. The sound on this album is not the best (I've since heard far worst, but at the time, this was the worst I'd heard). The first track was a "KoKo" that was so damn fast that I, not yet even knowing about "Cherokee"" didn't have even half a clue as to what was going on. That was followed by a "Round Midnight" that was so slow that I, not yet having a real clue about ballads, couldn't get into. So I'm thinking, "Yeah, this guy can play fast, but big deal". Then... Cut 3 on Side 1 was the Birdland "Cool Blues". Now this was a 12 bar swinging little riff tune, and that was something that I'd learned a little someting about in the year or so I'd been somewhat obsessively exploring jazz. And I could tell from the gitgo that, crappy sound wuality or not, this was no ordinary saxophonist. The phrasing of the lines was as free and open as could possibly be, the lines took liberties with the basic harmony far beyond anything I'd yet heard, and the whole solo just seemed to be a journey of damn near epic proportions told with an offhand ease that made the reality of the content all the more staggering. "Well yeah, this guy can play!" The next, & final cut, was "Ornithology" from the same date. This was a long cut, w/exquisite solos by all. By the time it was over, I was in a daze. "Holy fukkin' shit - so THIS is why everybody shits themselves over this Charlie Parker guy. Yeah, I get it now." Well, I really didn't get it then, and maybe still don't fully get it. But damn, I was 15 or 16, the record had crappy sound, and I still got something, something that stuck so deep that it's never left. Maybe it was the fact that my first exposure to Bird was some live shit as opposed to studio, but the "I can't really get into it because of the sound quality" line is one that I refuse to accept as anything other than a cop-out, no matter how genuine the sentiment may be. I say this with nothing but love, but also with nothing but total seriousness: Listen, motherfuckers, LISTEN.

Not so sure that I would disagree with you. Look, I've heard talk for a long time about going "beyond Bird". That's bullshit. You can't go beyond Bird, because Bird was everything. If it existed in life, it was in his playing at some point. Now, what you can do, and what I'm a big believer in, is going different than Bird. Bird's way was just one way, and there's no limit to the number of ways there are to go. Never has been, and hopefully never will be. But no matter what way you go, you're not going to go "beyond" where Bird got, nor "beyond" what Bird was. Such a place does not exist. If you can do so well as to get to where Bird got going your own way (and maybe, maybe, a few people have), you've been blessed.

Next on Behind The Music:

Also, the very best Bird is often heard on some pretty rough sounding airshots. The Dial/Savoy/Verve trilogy (none of which is in anything resembling "poor" sound) is far more often than not just the tip of the iceberg. Live Bird is a universe unto itself, a freakin' glorious universe, and the sound quality often requires active listener engagement. Deal with it.

Look, I'll probably be inducted into the Subjectivity Hall Of Fame on the first ballot, but by any universal objective criteria I can think of, the collective body of Charlie Parker's improvisations rank as some of the most profound music of the 20th century. The "sound quality" of the various recordings will eventually remain a factor only if you're listening to music strictly for recreational reasons and are either unwilling or unable to listen to the music as music and not just as a lifestyle accessory. If at some point you don't "get it", fine, but there's no excuse to be had from any source other than within yourself.

Just a thought - have you checked you email's trash bin to see if their response (if they've actually sent one) might have accidentally been classified as spam & autodeleted? I know it's not "supposed" to happen like that, where a new sender is automatically classified as spam and automatically deleted, but I've had it happen once or twice for some inexplicable reason.

Just for the record, when I did work out, it was never at a fitness club (except when I first moved to Albuquerque, LTB & I joined a Nautilus club that was really cool). It was either at a city rec center, a school weight room, or at a local Y. I know the atmosphere at some of those hardcore gyms can be pretty, uh, "intense", and sometimes there's a level of brain-dead machismo that's pretty hard to take. Plus, there's the matter of ethics. We tried to join a Bally's here in Plano, signed a contract even, only to be called back in to sign a contract which, amazingly, showed totally different terms than the one we had signed two days earlier! Immediate threats of legal action got that deal (and the one that we had already signed) rescinded in a bigass hurry! So I can appreciate the tactic of wanting a less "intimidating" atmosphere to encourage greater participation in a truly worthwhile (and profitable) endeavor. But dammit, it's working out. It's exercise. There's weight lifting involved. You can only go so far into it before it's time to shit or get off the pot. And should you choose to shit, hell, anytime you shit, there's going to be a possibility that there's to be some occasional grunting involved. DUH!

Oscar Hammerstein Oscar Madison Ollie Matson

this is not accurate, Jim, and I think you know it. He violated the rules (as inane as they may be). He was told his membership was being cancelled, to stop lifting and follow her to the front desk. He ignored her, continued to lift weights, and behaved in an intimidating manner to the female manager. That's why the police were called. Well, yeah, but if his story is to be believed, the "intimidation" consisted solely of saying "I’m not grunting, I’m breathing heavy", ignoring her request, and continued exercising (and I've done enough working out to know that it's not at all a good thing to stop cold in the middle of a set unless something crashes or is about to crash. Just as you don't try to take away a dog's food while it's being eaten, you don't interrupt a serious set of reps. Totally uncool.). Even if his story is not to be believed, there's no allegations of physical or verbal threats (oh sure, he got "loud" & "offensive". WTF does that mean, that he grunted again? ) or anything like that. Nothing concrete other than that he refuted her assertation in some form or fashion & went back to work. So if all it takes for a fitness center manager to get intimidated and call the cops in is somebody not respecting their authori-TIE, then I stand by my original assertion that this is a clear cut case of Wimps' Revenge. Read the club's "techniques" & comments by other members. WTF is that all about anyway? People who get turned off by sweat, grunts, any of that, clearly have a hard time dealing with the simple realities of physicality (I shudder to think what making love to them would be like), and shouldn't be running something as purely physical as a fitness center unless their sole goal is to make the money, in which case, they should get the phuk out of the way, hire a manager who knows what time it is, and let the money come in all clean and sanitized through the bank. You don't create a supposedly serious environment for working out and then bitch when people actually do it. WIMPY! Truly a world gone wrong.

Yes, I think so. See you at Planet Fitness!

Nowhere Man Chicken Man (He's everywhere, he's everywhere!) Goose Tatum

I've gotten burns of all those Atlantic sides, and I can only say that although Harley was definitely not a "major figure", he made some good albums that very effectively held together as "presentations" of his "point of view". No rush, but I'll probably spring for this set at some point.

Informed and concerned yes, but trying to discredit a book before it's even been seen or read is hardly a case of "expectations", it's just plain being a blowhard and tossing negativity without reason. Members of the audience have a right to expect discussion based on actual knowledge of the work being discussed, generally obtained by actually reading it or, at minimum, having some first hand exposure to it. This is the same kind of rubbish that goes on continually at the whiner's forum (www.stevehoffman.tv) - endless complaining and bitching about every single little trivial thing, even about stuff that not only has yet to be released - but has yet to be created! Please! I've read nothing in this thread that reflects any other sort of attitude than a desire for a good book, tempered by what I would consider legitimate concerns fueled by a review, concerns which were addressed straightforwardly and (at this point, convincingly) by the author himself. The author's answers were recieved graciously enough and the general attitude now seems to be one of eagerness to read his work, w/o any guarantees of finding it to anybody's particular likings (anything else, a "I know I'm going to love it before I even read it!" attitude is the fawning of fanboys). Fair enough, and what's the problem? And as for Tom's assertion that I can only say that both Larry Kart & Allen Lowe, each in their own way, have shown an ability to discuss their work in a very palatable manner (when the discussion stems from genuine points of concern and not disingenuous "criticism"). There's another guy who's seemed to take a Planet Fitness approach to his work, but hey - there's always that type. Tom, to his credit and at this point, seems to be the former type of guy. Here's hoping that once the book is out & has actually been digested, he comes back to address any concerns, questions, and/or criticisms that anybody might have in the same fashion that he's handled this pre-release mini-flurry of same.

Having played all-acoustic gigs in restaurants where they tell you to "play softly" and you do, only to be told to "play softer", and you do, only to be told that "it's still too loud", so you play so soft that you can't even hear each other, only to be told that "it's still too loud", I sympathize with the guy's probable realization that they didn't really want him there in the first place, so they were going to have to make him leave, and fuck'em on the way out while we're at it. Seriously - how can there be exertion w/o the occasional noise? Impossible. This gym is marketing the illusion of working out, not the thing itself, and they need to be honest about it ("Come to Planet Fitness, where nothing really happens!"). Some poor souls still mired in tired, outdated 20th Century notions like doing what you set out to do probably think that the object of working out is to work out. Planet Fitness owes it to the Wondeful World Of Tomorrow to not accept these people as members in the first place. Doing otherwise leaves the impartial observer with the impression taht they're only in it for the money, and I know that that's not it. They're on a mission to get people to exercise. Of course they are! They called the police on this cat! For the "crime" of making noise while excercising. In a gym! It's a world gone wrong, I tell you, a world gone wrong...

God knows I'm out of shape to the point of embarassment, but if & when I decide to get it back together, I'm not so sure that this is the place I'll be going... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/18/nyregion...l?th&emc=th Hey, I used to work out a little, and I understand that those "serious" types can be intimidating, either directly or indirectly. But geez, you gotta grunt sometimes. Besides, it's been my experience that people who fear being around people who have proven themselves highly adept at accomplishing a certain task don't really want to accomplish the same thing for themselves nearly as much as they want to just revel in the thrill of thinking about doing it.

Wow. Maybe somebody will start a smashmymosaic group...

Lady Bird Johnson Misty Knight Newton Minnow

otoh, writers should be encouraged by the fact that at least a portion of their potential audience will be informed & concerned enough to expect a well-researched & well-written book, unless they're hoping for the opposite so they can get by with writing slop. Knowing that expectations ae high tends to lead one to either excellence or evasion. Thankfully, Tom sounds like he's in the former category.

Post-Clifford Max on Mercury is some of the very best major label/artist music that you're going to have a hard time finding w/o effort. For those who know most of the music included, the set's a "no-brainer" (as in, yeah - you're going to want to get it, it's that good). I myself am going to wait until it hits Running Low, but I'll definitely be getting it. I've got most of the material on old Trip LPs & various Japanese issues in various formats, but what I don't have + my expectations of the total packaging make getting it the aforementioned "no-brainer". If I let it pass, it'll be one of the more stupid things I've done.